"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Eutectic]

As I sat out a while ago in 17 degrees and snow cold start testing the Savage .30-30...... I pondered more about Alox 606 as the barrel cooled between shots.

I never tried Alox 606 in a formulation with ester 2 stroke oil.... The more I thought about it the better "marriage" the two sounded together!

The way the ester cleans up behind itself... (including other components in the formula) And the way Alox 606 wants to add to C.O.R.E. every shot it seems to me......

What if Ester cleaned up while Alox 606 took away a little slick???

I might just 'cook' up a batch when the snow stops!

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Eutectic, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking, the polyolesters are just too dang slick in sufficient amounts to polymerize the wax or make a grease in sufficient quantity to make the wax carrier hold up in the heat. I too have had the long-string accuracy degradation with EVERY form of Alox I've used, that's why I swore it off, but the ester's cleaning ability and the friction control of the Alox 606 might just cancel each other's negative qualities out while contributing the best qualities of both to the lube, which would be their film strength and lubrication properties.

I don't think any of us have tried that particular thing yet to any degree. Beeswax, sodium stearate/ester grease, and a little Liquid Alox (easier to get than 2138 or the others) ought to be worth a try.

Gear

[geargnasher]

What does poly butene come in, or where can one get it?

See post 1333.

Gear

[runfiverun]

polybutene is found in several 2 stroke oils,lucas oil additives,,stp,it's in the lucas red and tacky in ben's red lube.
it's also used in that bird go away stuff mentioned on page 68.
it's what gives those additives their tackyness and high shear strength.

[Eutectic]

EsterBee606

Well I cooked up some EsterBee606 yesterday. I left the formulation simple at just three parts without soap for the moment. I thought if Ester and Alox 606 were going to fight I'd start with them in the ring together without a referee!

I started with 23% Motul 2T 2 stroke ester. Then 17% Alox 606 and 60% Beeswax. My Alox 606 is LLA dried to remove solvents. It is like leathery jerky in texture.... So 17% out of the bottle would be less because 0F 45% solvent content. I cooked the ester and the Alox 606 leathery pieces at 250F They seemed to blend nicely but the mix kept bubbling small bubbles... I assume it was solvents being released from the ester maybe even the Alox 606 I thought was solvent free. I cooked these two until it was a clear blood-red liquid with no foam or bubbles.... about 8 minutes. I added the Beeswax holding at 200F.

When cooled the mix seemed quite tacky and a little thin. I know better than to judge a fresh lube but I added Beeswax anyway, bringing the mix to 20.7% Ester, 15.3% Alox 606, and 64% Beeswax. Today it is a little stiffer than I wanted (about like 50-50) but I'm going with it. I want to see if I can 'pull' the POE ester oil out right in the throat even when it gets 15 below zero.

My two Savage rifles (.30-30 & .32-20) have both passed my basic test and are ready for group/cold start tests. My basic test is a Ed's Red patch down the bore, then a dry, then 6 to 8 test rounds with no lead, no observation out of the ordinary in the bore under magnification, lube star appearance, fired case deposits if any, and bore machine marks.. (does the lube fill them or are they still visible)

After hand lubing bullets and washing my hands my fingers are still sticky.... I'm not sure if this is good or bad?

I'll post the first accuracy results next week weather permitting.

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

I knew you couldn't wait! Excellent work and thank you for "going for it". LLA and the two-stroke oils certainly do need the solvents cooked out. I've found that the Red Line two-stroke ester oil takes about ten minutes at 300F to stop smoking, and it's noticeably more thick after the solvents are gone, and about 25% less volume. I try to take solvent evaporation into account with my recipes, as you have.

As far as sticky goes, rub some of that orange stuff I sent you between your fingers and try to wash it off! I wouldn't sweat it too much, the ester oils tend to act as a solvent to the other ingredients and seem to make things more sticky. I suppose we could always add 2-3% carnauba if any of these Esterbee formulas turn out to work well and we just want to reduce tack a bit.

Something I made the other day that is a bit too firm for my liking, but will probably be just wonderful for rifles is Felix lube made like this: 7-oz beeswax, 3 tablespoons reduced Red Line two-stroke racing oil, and one heaping tablespoon of dry, powdered Ivory soap. Made grease by cooking the ester oil and Ivory together until fully liquid (450F), cooling it a bit, and adding the beeswax when the pan was about 220F and turning the heat back on to maintain about 200 while the wax melted and blended with the grease. This stuff still has a pretty low melt point (150F or so), so wouldn't necessarily meet our storage requirements, but it might take care of the little cold-start issue so many of these lubes can have and still handle 100+ days.

Gear

[runfiverun]

today must have been lube modifcation day.
i attempted to ht the simple lube with some xlox i grabbed the one i had previously hit with mineral spirits but was drying out enough it wouldn't pour out of the bottle.
anyway i used 1-oz of the simple lube and hit it with bout 10% of the xlox.
melted it in the wave and dip lubed some boolits things seemed fine on the boolits.
but the lube seemed a bit on the crumbly side.
hmmmm.
more heat, back in it goes.
now i gotta wait.
it looks almost like i hit j-lube with lithium grease.
i'm wondering about the temp requirements now [i didn't put the thermometer in the mix but i know i was in the 350 range]
and whether the atf is not liking the addition or the soaps in the xlox didn't get hot enough to work on the vaseline.

we will see tomorrow...

[geargnasher]

I mixed a pea-sized blob of gooey LLA with a teaspoon of one of my EsterBee Sodium lubes (I've been calling all the Redline/Ivory/wax/Polybutene lubes "Longhorn Lube" in my notebook due to it's burnt orange color) last night out of curiosity, but I did it cold and it got sort of fibery and dry. LLA with ANY solvent content is absolutely LOUSY as a lube and failed worse on the wear tester than dry, unlubed boolits. Anybody who's tried to size wet LLA-coated boolits knows this. Must be the solvent. Anyway, I wasn't impressed enough to actually melt down an ingot of any of the stuff I have laying around and try it with the Alox, yet. I'm going to wait for the lubes I have to prove to me that they're too slick, first.

BTW, I ordered a .308 barrel for my Savage today, the bore is just too big in my 7mm-08 for accurate HV shooting with any of the standard designs, custom mould options are limited, and I don't want to mess with modifying a mould right now for this barrel. The .308 should be good for at least 2400 fps, which being .30-caliber is near the top of where most people would ever go with cast boolits anyway. Getting a shade over 2600 fps out of the 7mm was a lot of fun, though, just couldn't get the groups to hold together well enough at that velocity for lube testing with the boolit I have to use.

Gear

[runfiverun]

okay i have calmed down and so has the lube..
a lot,,,, it actually pulled everything together aaaaa lot better than it looked initially.
it's a bit harder right now than i would like.

sound like a recurring theme here??
still gonna wait untill tomorrow afternoon to see how it plays out..

did you order a 10 or a 12 twist for the 308?
and the tight neck...
reminds me of the white lith grease i initially stearated it took about 12-14 hrs to thicken.

[geargnasher]

I got a 12-twist, 24" with a "reglur" chamber, it was 2/3 the price of most of the barrels out there, and pre-made rather than 18-24 weeks out. The reason for the .308 was I can knock the shoulder back on '06 brass and have about 17 thousandths thickness to play with, according to my checkings that should be enough.

It does seem to take a bit for the molecules to stop spinning after having the carp cooked out of them. Sometimes lubes soften-up, sometimes they firm up, you kind of have to put a little "English" on the recipe to get it to arc right into the target consistency, like Shrink-To-Fit Levi's, or water-quenched low-antimony alloys.

Gear

[runfiverun]

it was the crumbly ness [stupid word] that was weirding me out.
it thought i had poured a straight pao into melted b-wax for a bit while it was cooling.

12 twist 308 will work just fine.
by curiosity i took a 308 case and run it into a 300 savage die.
it gave me the neck length of a 30-30 with enough case capacity for 40-42 grs of powder.
i have a heavy 30" 30 cal bbl blank sitting here.....
i just ain't sure about finding a reamer,or whether a smith could put a 300 savage chamber in and cut a 30-30 type neck.
i figure about 40 grs of 4831 should give a 150-170 gr boolit some velocity.

[runfiverun]

okay after the waiting period i went ahead and modified the other 3 oz's of simple lube with
2 tsp of the non cut xlox.
there was an immediate improvement and the lube didn't go to the hard and crumbly side at all.
i also run a little more heat right off the bat.
i poured the lube out to cool and let it sit 4 hrs later i rolled it off the wax paper and squeezed it into stick shape.
i like it....
it has the consistency of silly putty but with a titch more sticky.
it's real close in viscosity to the moly lube i use, just a titch softer and a little stickyier.
i'm gonna have to go back and slightly reconfigure the whole simple lube recipe.

version 2 will be
4oz's by weight b-wax.
2 tsp opti-2 2 stroke oil
2 tsp dexron atf.
2.5 tsp straght x-lox
4 tsp of white petrolatum.

the lube turns brown/black when melted but more an o/d green when cooled.
i'll have to get some down range soon we have been hovering in the mid-teens all week.

[geargnasher]

I couldn't stand it any more, so I filled the last of my Lyman 45's up (it was a gas-check seater, bone dry inside and squeaky clean) with the Longhorn Lube made with 5-oz straight Yaley shape wax, a full 4-oz fresh Ivory soap bar, and 9.5 tablespoons straight Red Line Racing two-stroke oil. I shot some of this this morning in two different guns and am sold so far, but I needed to lube a couple thousand .45 ACPs for long-term storage and beeswax isn't my favorite long-term wax base.

I shot several honest 1", ten-shot groups at 25 yards with my Kimber and M&P .45 (both short barrel), no lube star, no lube fouling in the chamber, no yucky goo in the magazine or action. Neither of these pistols routinely shoots this well. So, I went back and shot another 50 through the M&P to make certain there was no buildup in the front of the chamber (it's famous for this, as is the .40 longslide version) and it passed with flying colors. I must note also that the M&P was leaded in the throat from a previous lube and the same load/boolit I shot today, and the Longhorn cleared it all out in three shots. I mean ALL of it, same as Joe's soap lube did in my .30-'06 way back.

I loaded 20 for my Marlin .30-30 and sighted in the new scope I got for it, ended up with two 7/16", 5-shot groups at 50 yards with cooling periods, no first shot flyer, so my hopes are up even with this very basic, hurried, NON-extreme testing. Gotta start somewhere.

I'm sure the lube could stand some tweaking, maybe some LLA, maybe some carnauba, maybe some 160 Microwax, but I've been dinking with this same basic formula and switching out the waxes (beeswax, Gulf paraffin/180Micro @50/50, straight Yaley Shaping wax, Yaley/beeswax @50/50, and tweaking the grease slightly, but overall I keep coming up with a lube that essentially does the same thing. If only it will hold up in the rifles I do believe this is IT. Getting rid of the Vaseline in Joe's formula and finding exactly the right plasticizer/lube oil to replace it is what I was after.

I don't know if the Red Line has polybutene in it or not, but it acts like it does for sure and I stopped adding it because the lubes made with Red Line were turning out just like Joe's lube with about 1/2% Paratac added. IOW just like I like it, feathery and with a lot of glide.

Keeping my fingers crossed,

Gear

[Eutectic]

Some good results and then.....

I've had three mornings to test EsterBee606. At 26F the .30-30 #412440 combo did fine. Seemed more sensitive to cold start (higher) and lube star was heavier for observations.

I also tested the EsterBee606 in the .45 Colt. I've added the Blackhawk to my 'test mules' now. I think it tests a lubes 'rapid wetting ability'. With this hard boolit and the quick stress and heat when the boolit meets (jumps too) the rifling our lube needs to get into action quick! Commercial lubes fail this test miserably, leaving lead for the first 1/2" to 3/4". The convenience of a hard lube may come at a price..... something to think about. When Javalina 50-50 'stumbled' this test with slight leading I was surprised...... But it comfirmed my thoughts about 2138F hindering wetting ability vs. Alox 350. EsterBee606 passed this test. This was a cylinder full with gun and cartridges at 60F however, as all these .45 tests have been so far. Doing them cold will be an extreme test as a lube starts looking "Extreme"!

The next morning offered 16F. The Savage .32-20 was shot twice and I couldn't see the holes!!! A check found them 6 1/2" high and 1" apart horizontally. (included cold start) I reluctently moved the scope adjustment half a turn and shot two more.... Point of impact still 6 1/2" high! Something had broken inside the turret and put this test mule out of service. (Cheap scope) The .30-30 shot a 4 shot 3/4" group at 70 yards to point of aim. The cold start first round with 4.5% powder reduction and the second round were in the same hole! the 3rd and 4th round were in the same hole as well only low-right a little. Double groups, even subtle, can be a sign....

Finally! The next morning outing was 0! 2F when I quit. I was very sad the .32-20 was out of service as I had been waiting for this temperature to cold test Joe's lube which was loaded up in some .32-20's. I'll have to do that test in the .30-30 or .35 Rem now in the next single digit (or lower) morning which shouldn't be a long wait!
The .30-30 cold start (Gun and ammo outside 2 1/2 hours) was 2" low and 1" right. Round #2 went to point of aim. Two minutes later round #3 was 1 1/4" to the left of round #1 one! Round four two minutes later was an inch away from round #2! These were round 14,15,16, and 17 with EsterBee606 down the barrel. Like I have said before, Alox 606 additions to my lubes have always plagued me with accuracy degredation quickly but in this case I think it was the cold. It is no fun shooting these frozen guns believe me! You cheek starts to slip around on the stock.... You look and your breath has applied an ice sheet to your stock!

I also tested my Remington Model 600 .35 Remington. I had four rounds with Polybutene Felix 1.5% hBN lube which I was glad of after the .30-30 failure. The scope was just installed so I shot 40 yards. Elevation was close but the shot was 3" left. I moved the scope (Leupold 2.5 x 8) and boy the adjustment turned hard! I recommend letting your scope warm back up before adjusting after these cold tests! The next three shots were only 1/2" left and touching! Seems Polybutene Felix 1.5% hBN doesn't mind zero at all. More time will tell...

Eutectic

[Bigslug]

Last post way back on the morning of December 21, 2012. . .

Did the Mayan Apocalypse take out all of the forum's lube scientists?

[btroj]

No Mayan calendar issues, just winter. I don't enjoy shooting in cold weather too much.

I am certain we will hear more from others soon.

[geargnasher]

Work and discussion is carrying on privately, particularly some extreme cold work by Eutectic at the moment. I'm working on Longhorn lube and cold starts, lots going on but more work to be done before reporting. Data gathering slows down when the weather is bad, as much as we NEED the nasty cold weather info.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i have been getting some feed back on the simple lube also.
it seems the unaltered version is doing slightly better than the xlox version so far [on the first shot anyway] in rifles.
there is still some discussion on replacing some of the vaseline with something else at this point. [slack wax is on my mind]

i have also been doing some work on mixing the E-lubes wiith more products.
carnuba red 50-50 with modified L-purple is showing some promise.
i think the extra wax is helping control the extra grease better and the stearated lith grease appears to be offsetting the carnuba.
the L-purple mix has a higher melt point too,hopefully overcoming the lith greases issue with summertime temps.
this might be a good modification to ben's red.
i have about 4 more [5 gal] bucket's of boolits to get lubed,and some casting to get done too.
i just got a couple of molds i have to fit to their rifles and establish an accuracy baseline for them to move along with some of this testing.

[geargnasher]

I just got billed for my new .308 barrel today, so I guess it finally got made. Then new .308 mould from Miha should be along soon, might be in the .308 business come early Feb. Been working with a new-to-me Ranch Dog mould testing Longhorn lube, haven't done much with my 7mm-08 test mule due to not having a mould suitable for high velocity (thing has a big bore dimension). Between the gun, barrel, and Bob's boolit, this should be a good test platform for some real HV .30-caliber shooting. Might still get a fresh 7mm-08 barrel and try to get that Lee boolit to shoot, that would push lube to over 2600 fps and maybe get Michael off my ****.

Gear

PS, Lamar: I put about 15% Fluidmaster bowl wax in my last batch of Longhorn, and doubled the beeswax, so it's like half beeswax, then the other half equal parts Ivory soap, slack wax, and Red Line oil all soaped together. That worked pretty well but is too sticky and didn't pass the jettison tests from last weekend, and was causing small fliers in 30-degree weather. I added about 3% carnauba wax and tried again on Sunday, NYD, and again this afternoon, much better. Still not quite right, but getting there. Alox is a bust for me. What we need is some REAL vaseline with the yellow goodie stuff in it. Mixing the slack wax and white Vaseline seems to give the vaseline the body it's missing.

[runfiverun]

i'm betting you are not getting a good jettison, wait you said that. [you need some more wet] or a friction modifier. [atf maybe?]

i'm still puzzled by the alox [bust] it turns the lubes around in the initial visc and feel/feather test but it shoots like junk at some point in the shot string...

yeah i gotta go get some fluidmaster wax.
i am thinking of modifying the S-green [name changing on request]
by lowering the vaseline and adding it.
maybe a 25% addition and dropping one tsp of the vaseline.
good lord i just realized how close this lube would really be to yours. [if you did use some atf] and i swapped in some slack wax.

we need a middle modifyer