"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[bruce381]

8-Hydroxy Quinoline: Oxidation inhinbitor and color/odor stabilzer

[runfiverun]

excellent pictures.
look how that boolit was pushing back on itself.
and the beautiful square land and groove marks with no lead being displaced into the gas check crimp groove.
it looks maybe like the very base of the g/c was picking up a little alloy along the way.

[geargnasher]

I was more enamored with the ZDDP than HBN because he ZDDP deposits and adheres in high-speed babbit situations, which is basically an analogy for a boolit zinging down a barrel.

I'm not writing anything off except for a few items like most solids. I don't like Moly because it builds and is a beeaaatch to clean out, same reason I don't like Alox 350 or calcium stearate. It these things can be utilized to a provable advantage and the downsides mitigated with some other additive, then bring it on.

Talking about older lube formulations, what I've been working on keeps reminding me of the old NRA formula, equal parts beeswax, Vaseline, and paraffin. Really not a bad formula, but it has issues in the heat. Simply stearating it to make it more robust in the heat is essentially what I'm doing.

What was the deal with too much soap?

Gear

[geargnasher]

8-Hydroxy Quinoline: Oxidation inhinbitor and color/odor stabilzer

Is that one of the additives used to keep the oil itself from oxidizing, or metals to which the oil might be applied?

Gear

[bruce381]

Is that one of the additives used to keep the oil itself from oxidizing, or metals to which the oil might be applied?

Gear

More for the oil and the additves from oxidizing. Not really a metal protectant.

[Eutectic]

What was the deal with too much soap?

Gear

I only had the one bad experience with higher 'soap' concentrations and that was with the 2 stroke ester oil formulations. Accuracy got erratic quickly for me and I had some antimony wash. But one experience means nothing and repeatability is our paramount goal. Actually, I was looking forward to some actual data on using straight 'Irish Spring' which tickled my fancy pretty well as to the overall results in hard testing. Theory wise I don't like too high a melt point but I lean as you know towards the cold end of the testing as that's where I want good first shot results in real life 'business' situations!

I won't champion hBN just yet...... I definitely will 'ring' it out when the mercury is minus though.

My thoughts are leaning towards your thoughts Gear. Maybe simple is better? Maybe older time tried components with newer enhancers added? I know the ZDDP will coat better than hBN. (or at least I think I do...) But I force myself to try and think simple and basic.... Do I want a film strength or barrier left or do I just want to modify the CORE consistency???

That .41 Ranch Dog packs a lot of lube even with the small multiple grooves. It leaves a small ring of lube around the case mouth at boolit departure which may be the outside lubricated design I have it in. It has happened with my long throats that basically encapsulate the boolit in perfect alignment. At any rate the hBN Polybutene Felix is purged off the boolit very well as liquid (or vapor?) I believe because at 20 ft the boolit appears totally clean with 4 paper testing results to look at so far.

Eutectic

[btroj]

Is that one of the additives used to keep the oil itself from oxidizing, or metals to which the oil might be applied?

Gear

In Bag Balm it is actually present as a mild antiseptic. It is the active ingredient in that formula.

[runfiverun]

zddp will leave a thin coating on the barell.
that's how it works in an engine.
i tried to figure out the make-up of rislone engine additive as i know zddp is one of it's ingredients.
if it had polybutene as an ingredient it would be worth a revisit.
but as it is, i use the stuff as an oil additive in the old bronco now.
i was going to try an experiment of "water dropping" some boolits straight in Z-MAX from the mold and let them sit in it for a week.
just never got that far yet.

[Eutectic]

Barrel Harmonics......

We have discussed barrel harmonics causing 'cold shot' fliers by being influenced by C.O.R.E. changes in the bore..... I agree.... And I have the start of some proof.

I have factored in a left twist Hornet that happens to be a 14" bull barrel Contender. It displays very slight go the right tendencies (1/4" - 3/8" ??) on 'cold starts' but very little elevation rise. Hummm?

This morning I shot three rounds at 70 yards from the .414 Super Contender..... a 10" bull barrel in this case. The first shot was right on! It wasn't necessarily the hBN either, as it did it with Polybutene Felix two days ago as well. Today 1st shot was dead where sighted (1" high at 70yds) The second shot I called left an inch from operator error.... It was 1 1/4" left. The 3rd shot was back into the group 7/8" from #1 shot. The three shots only had 5/8" vertical dispersion. This brute is a hard test in grip and trigger control. I've shot heavier kicking handguns but none where the recoil was any faster. Takes a lot of 'mind over matter' to squeeze these babies off!

My positive statement on this is the short stiff bull barrels seem to somewhat negate harmonic troubles... maybe eliminate them in some causes??

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

I never had a handgun start high. Break-actions also bend in different directions when being fired, and a bull-barrel isn't going to bend at all. The radial harmonics will be there, but the effect will likely not be noticeable.

I remember your Ivory Ester with the higher soap now, my brain is too full of too many projects! Note the target I posted above, that was high-soap ester with the two bad flyers. I never could get the ester, no matter how promising base groups might be, to NOT throw flyers when combined with Ivory. I'm not calling it a fact either, but is trended enough that I made the castor-soap lube and when it cured the flyers I quit wasting components on the esters altogether, which is a shame because I have several good looking variants of EsterBee with Ivory ready to test. I also got a little bit of antimony wash from the ester soap lubes, but I was shooting right at 2K fps also.

Gear

[357maximum]

I also got a little bit of antimony wash from the ester soap lubes, but I was shooting right at 2K fps also.

Gear

currently donning flak jacket...OK...here we go:

I very much liked the idea of this thread when it got started and I an NOT trying to come of as some sort of a Richard Head here, but as I have tried to keep up with this saga I keep asking myself one thing, but.....when is it going to get extreme?????

I am talking something beyond cast loading 101. Le' liquid mule snot will do 2K in a well balanced load in just about any decent rifle as will a plethora of everyday lubes. In order to call something EXTREME somone is going to have to go faster in more varied temps. Boringly simple Lithi-bee will do 2.8+ K accurately in all the temps I shoot in,.........you just have to have two versions to do it without that annoying 1inch cold flyer. IMHO the testing needs to be amped up a little here to even begin to call this "EXTREME". So far I see alot of people simply playing with expensive unobtanium oils. That is fine if it entertains YOU, but no one is actually furthering the cause much with the testing requirements here that are definately not EXTREME. You might be getting closer to a unversal temp plinker lube, but nowhere near EXTREME.

You are not going to get "extreme" with mediocre testing.

In the words of Curt Cobain...................."entertain us"........please.

[geargnasher]

There ya go with that Michigan Humor again Mikey! We're just getting started! I think you know very well what sort of "extreme" things Joe has done using his soap lube. Right now I'm trying to make a reasonable facsimile and verify it in my own guns, as well as a broad range of temps. He's shot it in a pretty wide temp range in most of his guns, and has been using it for something like three years at velocities and accuracy levels most consider impossible. I have a sample of his first "final" recipe and one from a new batch he just made, and so far have been everything in my guns that he says they are in his.

Part of my problem has been that I've reached a plateau with several formulas here, meaning that I've tested to the accurate limits of the systems. I can tell which lubes are worse, but not which are better beyond a certain point, so I'm having to re-learn everything at the casting, sizing, and reloading bench. I'm also having to re-do some rifles that have some dimensional hickies. I'm currently building a 7mm-08 with a nine twist barrel for a new HV test mule, right now I'm waiting on the boolits to age.

The problem with the lithi-bee lubes is that they can't cover the whole temp enchilada with one formula. You know that, Lamar knows that, I know that. We did everything that could be done to it from multiple stearates to super-high lithium concentrations to monkeying with the waxes and finally adding carnauba and EP modifiers of several kinds, nothing quite does it. I have two versions of Felix lube worked out that run the gambit for me, but I want ONE formula, and one that works really well for things like .45 Colt revolvers at snoozing velocities, which neither of my Felix rifle formulas do very well at any temperature because it's simply too stiff.

Soooo, working on a SOFT lube that doesn't get runny until several hundred degrees, has consistent friction characteristics in any shooting weather, and leaves consistent residuals has been my goal for now. I figure any of the formulas we've been playing with here should stand 2500 fps easily if they can hold up at 2K. The same principles apply, and if lithi-bee can take 2800+, then I'm not too worried about what I'm playing with. Proof is in the pudding, though, but if the lube doesn't handle "extreme" temps without falling apart during long strings or have terrible cold-barrel flyers, there's no sense in testing it at HV YET.

Gear

[Eutectic]

Ahhhh !! We have a good sign.....

Eutectic

[357maximum]

Gear


Did Bobby write that first sentence for you?

I am glad you picked up the fact I was jerking real hard on the chain.....good on you. You cannot practice hurdling without using hurdles though....that point was meant to be clearer than it was apparently.

I told Joe a few years ago he was on the right track with the super soaped lubes. I had played with them too and there is an answer in there somewhere. I have not kept up with his work since he got the boot here as he no longer wants to chat with me apparently.

I tried super soaping vaseline and used some of it as a "spice" into a modded lithi-bee lube as well as super soaping a few castor/felix type lubes. All versions worked for everything when the mercury was above freezing. The most accurate 2800 fps lube I have ever used was a super soaped jojoba oil/ microwax blend with no beeswax in it, but it still got softer than some would like in hot weather....it will not run or cause purges @ 90 degrees but some would be put off by the consistency of it before they ever pulled the trigger. It also did not like to go slow at all.

Joe sent me a sample of his lube (O.D green colored stuff that kind of smelled like cat feces) and it shot rather well but it is not real sizer friendly in my lyman 45 sizers. I do not actually size in my lubridizers I do that with push through dies if needed. Joes lube did not like my method, but it did shoot well. In a star or something that has a bit better/consistant lube compressing mechanism it may be fine. I do not know. There is a another hurdle for the mix there too....not only does it need to shoot fast, shoot accurately, be non multi viscosity over a large range of temps....it also needs to work in our tools that make castings into boolits. High hurdles and testing a 2 grand ain't gonna git it did. When I test a lube I test it at 700 fps and at 2500+ it if covers both ends then and only then will I try it at the 1800-2000 fps area that most everyone wants to push their stuff. My method right/wrong or otherwise.

[runfiverun]

the 1800-2-k area was picked mainly because it's a simple easy consistent speed everybody can relate to.
it was just a variable we decided on early so things we discussed were equal.
it also gave the opportunity to use several boolits in several guns.
i can use three different boolts with different lube carrying capabilitys in one rifle, and 2 different ones in another.
with equal accuracy.
i have a few rifles tied up in this now.
i carry over some rounds between revolvers and leverguns 20 and 24" bbl's, then move the lube to the rifles.
pushing things faster requires switching to another 2nd or 3rd rifle.
it's time consuming to go from 700 fps to 2-k to just test temperatures and first shot stuff.

i agree that the h/v needs to be done too,but it is the final extreme that needs tested.

[geargnasher]

Eutectic has really put a "hurdle" out there by demonstrating that rough bores need different stuff than smooth bores do, but also that it's possible to satisfy both. That 2600 FPS with goey, 8.5 BHN alloy with accuracy isn't anything to sneeze at, either.

I think Mike is right, maybe we should establish the hurdles better. I'm going to start another thread on lube performance and testing parameters, and compile the results here so we have a bit of a "standard" instead of "works for me in Michigan" or "stands Texas Heat". Let's put our heads together.

Gear

[357maximum]

Eutectic has really put a "hurdle" out there by demonstrating that rough bores need different stuff than smooth bores do, but also that it's possible to satisfy both. That 2600 FPS with goey, 8.5 BHN alloy with accuracy isn't anything to sneeze at, either.

I think Mike is right, maybe we should establish the hurdles better. I'm going to start another thread on lube performance and testing parameters, and compile the results here so we have a bit of a "standard" instead of "works for me in Michigan" or "stands Texas Heat". Let's put our heads together.

Gear

I am not sure another thread will help, and what Eutectic has done with that Gooey alloy is nothing short of amazing. I have never been able to do that without paperpatching....worthy of it's own episode of that's incredible in my book.
I knew it was possible to get rougher bores to do it with well balanced and tailored loads as I have seen Dutch4122 do it quite a few times with some of his old milsurps...but to do it with that alloy. WOW is all I have to say.


I think that the best way to test The Extreme American Lube candidates would involve the post office. When you have something that you are proud of send some of it around to the four corners and wait for results to come in. It would be a logistical nightmare and some who receiceved lube would never get off their @$$ to tend to their end, so even that method would be flawed. Another problem is those that do not/cannot actually do what they type, but luckily for us most of them keyboard commandos have left this forum or went and created a pulpit of their own elsewhere when the cutain was yanked to reveal the wizard or the BS button was hit too many times...... so that little issue would be limited I spose.

To be dead honest I am not sure this all around lube is 100% possible as a whole, but I remain hopeful and optimistic. I really thought I was done with this madness...thanks for replanting the acorn.

[Eutectic]

I am not sure another thread will help, and what Eutectic has done with that Gooey alloy is nothing short of amazing. I have never been able to do that without paperpatching....worthy of it's own episode of that's incredible in my book.
I knew it was possible to get rougher bores to do it with well balanced and tailored loads as I have seen Dutch4122 do it quite a few times with some of his old milsurps...but to do it with that alloy. WOW is all I have to say.

357......

Two different guns were involved above. The .22 Hornet has a mirror bore and does shoot the Bator boolit at 2600fps cast with 8.5 bhn. It is hollow pointed as well to 48grs. It shot great with the ester (Ester Bee) formulations and does just as well with Polybutene Felix. The throat/boolit fit is about perfect and the boolit is short (low sectional density) Slow 1680 powder helps. It does tell you if the bore is fouled more than it likes! Terminal it rivals (or beats V-Max) I won't talk about a 1 in 8" twist .25-35 I tried the 'butter' soft alloy in!

The rough bore is a Winchester Model 92 .38-40. What shot so good above in the Hornet (EsterBee) is too clean of lube for it and groups open up. Polybutene Felix does great in both guns. The rougher bore is less sensitive to 'cold starts' than about all the guns/calibers I have tested. Hummm? See why so much time is needed?

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

i'll give you a hug and welcome you back into the fold if necessary [open handed gesture??]
sides that, what else you gotta do?
winter is comin..
the wax knowledge you have could really be a big help on the poly thing.
i know we have discussed b-wax and such a ton.
however i'm still not quite convinced there isn't a better candidate/substitute available.
the poly does have a bit of a tendancy to make the b-wax a bit hard shelled and i think that it is the cause of it taking so much of it to become a lube.

if the carrier was allready able to mush on it's own and hold the oil without it making the carrier change property's too much that would be a big step forward.

[geargnasher]

I guess this wouldn't be a good time to bring up what I did last fall with my military Swede....

I will say that super-deep grooves and wide lands require some special treatment, and that soft lubes helped me a bunch. The rest is alloy, fit, and loading technique. Due to all that had to be done to keep pressure off the boolit, the lube itself is only tested as far as land pressure and muzzle jettison goes, so I don't feel it's a good "test mule" for lubes intended for more "conventional" loading techniques.

Really all that has to happen is make a lube that has the same frictional properties no matter the temperature (while viscosity WILL change, the net lubricity can be made constant. There is an important difference here. Viscosity doesn't matter as much as I once thought it did, except for jettison properties and function in a sizer. Keep the C.O.R.E under control at all temps with a formula that is just "right" to shoot well in the first place, and you have it licked.

Distributing lubes for testing is part of the logical progression, but so is being able to translate a recipe. I figure I'll continue to send out potential winners to a few individuals, but for the most part only if they have trouble making the stuff on their own. Felix lube is actually a cinch to make if you've been doing this a while, but it is daunting to many, and the soap lube I'm working with makes the Felix Lube process look about as difficult as boiling a cup of water.

I really think we're getting closer, I know how to make the lube meet the consistent lubricity requirement, but am still tweaking it to deal with some random flyers and other details.

Gear