"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[btroj]

I think he is using a synthetic oil additive, not the oil itself.

Hopefully Gear will clear this up a bit shortly.

[runfiverun]

that would explain the gooey hockey pucks...

i recall a conversation i had with starmetal some time back and he did talk about parrafinics.
[bout the time he was going to use irish spring straight as a lube.]
i think he was able to score some block wax from a refinery somewhere.
like where he used to work.


polybutene is found in some 2 stroke oils. and some other oil additives [lucas and probably stp]
not all 2 stroke oils are equal, some have the poly, some have castor oil,and some have different additives.
if it's a touch tacky it most likley has the polybutene in it.
the 2 stroke i use in the simple green has it.
the balance is the sticky and the slippery.
especially since vaseline will also add some of both the pinch and rub test will tell you if you need more soft or slippery.

[5Shot]

the pinch and rub test will tell you if you need more soft or slippery.

I may have missed it on this thread in the 60+ pages - how do you determine from shooting if you need more Sticky or more Slippery?

[btroj]

Is polybutene what makes STP so darn viscous?

[geargnasher]

I may have missed it on this thread in the 60+ pages - how do you determine from shooting if you need more Sticky or more Slippery?

I have a giant chocolate chip cookie for the first person who can explain that adequately in 500 words or less.

I did mean the Lucas Synthetic oil stabilizer. I've used the regular too, but I like what the synthetic did in the cold friction tests.

The proportion that SO FAR I'm liking is actually 1/13 by weight, not the 1/12 I posted above. That means 4 oz Vaseline by weight (I dollop it on an index card on a scale, subtract weight of card), a large bar of Ivory soap (it comes in two sizes), 4 oz of beeswax by solid weight, and one ounce of Synthetic Lucas stabilizer. If it's too hard after 24 hours, add more Vaseline, not more Lucas, it gets too "slippery" if you do Also, when I said "20% more Vaseline", I meant only add 20% to the Vaseline proportion itself.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Is polybutene what makes STP so darn viscous?

One of the things, I'm sure. Ben's Red has a LOT of it due to the Lucas grease and the STP. That's a good thing, and also why it benefits from the additional ATF. The paraffin in JPW as well as the carnauba act as stiffener/detackifiers. We sure have made up some words on this thread, haven't we?

Gear

[runfiverun]

the sticky part is truly the hars part to explain i have to feel the lube to see if it has some but not too much.
the slippery can also be the oil you need to release from the wax.[or the wax not being able to control it]
too much and you have problems purging excess lube,poor accuracy,wet brass,or gun or lube loss in the throat.
not enough and you could see wash or leading near the muzzle,build up in the bbl,and flyers [stringing] from lube friction not being equal [and not just on the first shot]
this is all assuming you have a decent static/mechanical fit and proper alloy [bhn too]
and a balanced load.

[runfiverun]

brad it's not so much the viscosity it adds.
if you dip some on your pointy finger and mash it with your thumb then open them a few times you'll see stringing between them [like pizza cheese]
that's what it does, it adds viscosity but it adds enough tension to the oil to string like that.
remember waaay back when we were discussing how tacky would help pull all the lube off a boolit.
and how a lube needs some friction to build a bit of heat to go wet and flow where needed.
this is the controller...

anybody notice the shift in the lube recipes as this thread has gone along?
with similar avenues being explored,discussed, and revisited.
the revisits are from good traits.
other lubes like bens are being explained why they are popular,and any faults they may contain,
one little bit at a time.

[geargnasher]

It does bounce around a lot make hard left turns from time to time, but we've explored some interesting stuff, and eliminated quite a few "what ifs". I'm still torqued that the bentone grease didn't work, but at least I learned that case necks expand before the boolit gets corked up in the barrel tightly, and that lube blowout and runover are to be considered part of the lubing mechanism. Col. Harrison figured out that solids don't work well in lube, but never bothered to tell us WHY. I like Eutectic's CORE concept, too. Maintaining consistent bore condition, friction, and residuals is key to accuracy.

Lots of stuff to consider with a universal lube, through all everyone's done so far I've learned about scraper grooves, lube consistency and groove shape, number of grooves and lube viscosity relationships, how "clean" a lube needs or needs not be, how lube residuals are affected by gunpowder residue, confirmed why too slick is bad, and figured out about how heat absorption rates and cohesive/adhesive qualities affect performance. And a whole bunch of other stuff, too.

Speaking of "too slick", here's a perfect example of a purge flyer. Shots #4 and #9 printed the second group low and left in this 100-yard, 10-shot group. I've seen this many times in the past few years since I've been dinking with homemade lubes. This particular one is the soap lube with the polyolester AC oil. Sometimes too slick is a bad thing especially when combined with excessive case neck clearance. When I substituted castor oil, and less of it, the problem disappeared.



I'm concluding that the situation was C.O.R.E related, in this case too much residual lube oil accumulation, because the rifle always goes from low left to high right as velocity is increased. I didn't chrono these, but the two-shot group was probably losing at least 150 fps over the other shots due to the bore being loaded with too much slick stuff and the powder didn't have as much to work against. Think of a V-10 engine with low compression in two cylinders. When the excess purged, the following few shots returned to the main group until the lube accumulated again.

Gear

[Oreo]

I wish I had something to add to this thread. I love following along reading the very technical figuring out you guys are doing. Gear, you're my hero. I would sniff the boolit lube you discard and rub it on my body. Keep up the good work!

[5Shot]

Thanks for the clarifications.

Gear -

One last question - suggested proportion for substituting Sodium Stearate instead of Ivory? I have 2 lbs of the Sodium Stearate here that I bought some time ago for lube making.

[popper]

I learned that case necks expand before the boolit gets corked up in the barrel tightly, and that lube blowout and runover are to be considered part of the lubing mechanism

Do you think this is a reason the polybutene helps?

[**oneshot**]

Took me a few days but I have read through this, going back for reference a few times.

On the subject of vaseline being different than it was, I have been using bagbalm for my hands and feet in the winter. http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/s...FQ-f4AodXDUAyA

It is thick, slick, and sticks to everything, and a little goes a long way. It's like vaseline on steroids. You can zoom in and read the ingredients.

I'm no chemist so I don't know the goods and bads of the ingredients mixed with waxes or other ingredients.

[felix]

Hopefully, the chemical grade sodium stearate that you have is just that. Chances are good that any glycerin would be close to zero in content, like with Ivory soap. The soap manufactures sell the glycerin (much higher value) obtained from the fat before making soap out of that portion of the fat remaining. ... felix

[5Shot]

Hopefully, the chemical grade sodium stearate that you have is just that. Chances are good that any glycerin would be close to zero in content, like with Ivory soap. The soap manufactures sell the glycerin (much higher value) obtained from the fat before making soap out of that portion of the fat remaining. ... felix

I believe so...I will go take a look at the label on the bag.

** ETA ** the bag doesn't say much, other than Sodium Stearate, and the place I bought it from appears to be defunct now. It is a fine white powder.

[felix]

It seems polybutene would help tremendously, and might very well take the place of lanolin in the lube. Colder the ambient temp, the more polybutene would ideally replace lanolin. Might be worth a few lube samples using both in various proportions to advance an all purpose lazy man's lube. ... felix

[runfiverun]

it would definatly be worth replacing the lanolin in simple green with some lucas oil stabilizer.
i have used it in place of lanolin before.
the synthetic version would be an even better replacement especially with a non poly 2 stroke oil.
the amount could be raised to 1 teaspoon easily.
maybe even 2 teaspoons full to offset the missing poly in the 2 stroke.
the better viscosity range of the synthetic would be an improvement also.

[geargnasher]

If used as a direct replacement for lanolin, a 50/50 mix of Lucas (either kind) and Vaseline works really well. On my wear tester, the polybutene-enhanced Vaseline did much better than Lucas or bar oil alone.

Gear

[Wayne Smith]

Took me a few days but I have read through this, going back for reference a few times.

On the subject of vaseline being different than it was, I have been using bagbalm for my hands and feet in the winter.
It is thick, slick, and sticks to everything, and a little goes a long way. It's like vaseline on steroids. You can zoom in and read the ingredients.

I'm no chemist so I don't know the goods and bads of the ingredients mixed with waxes or other ingredients.

8-Hydroxy Quinoline Sulfate 0.3% in a Petrolatum Lanolin base. I have no idea what the 8-Hydroxy Quinoline adds, but Petrolatum and Lanolin are already assessed here as ingredients.

[Eutectic]

hBN meets Polybutene Felix??

I also agree we are closer to finding the "Extreme". We are getting to the CORE of things but the CORE is an allusive target!

I am very interested in seeing Gear's 'high soap percent' formulas unfold..... 'High soap' bit me earlier and I shy from it at the present...

I like the Stihl chain bar oil so far. I like it because it is an inferior lube!!! Compared to some of the hi-tech stuff we are playing with. It has a pour point of 30 below zero and that is pretty darn good for a S.A.E. 50 oil! The Polybutene Felix shoots VERY accurate down to 18F (so far) It cold starts off a little but then settles right into the group. I don't want to leave this formulation just yet..... But I want to try something mixed in....

Now Harrison didn't like 'solids' included as he strived for his lube formula. I don't believe he was anywhere near wanting 100 degree temp swings like we do either!

We talk of past formula things and then re-look sometimes later at some worth looking at again..... or try the first time maybe?

LISTEN! Many pages ago I said how important it was for us to listen to everyone posting on this thread. Great Formulations, even patents come from the strangest places at times! (I know) Sometimes a possible lube constituent is big-time offensive to us... Here, we need to try all the harder to be open minded! Take Alox 350 for example.... It is sure not Gear's first love.... Yet Gear hasn't 'spit it out' no matter how bad it tastes! Yet think of this...... None of us posting are using Alox 350 in our chosen lube test formulation at the moment!

Now I'm not picking on Gear here! I'm just leading up to how important listening is even for (what we think are) real obnoxious choses!

Another one is Moly. Gear and I both hate this one! Yet....... a while back Run mentioned how his Moly formulation wasn't sensitive to how many lube grooves you put it in..... I hate Moly in bullet lube! But I forced myself to think abstract a moment and ask myself..."How come?" The 'how come' took me back to another component I mentioned way back.....

Hexagonal Boron Nitride...... What little I've used it on "J" word stuff I really like it! You see little about cast boolit lube though.... "Wonder how Polybutene Felix would like a little taste of hBN?" I thought out loud.

I took a small sample of Polybutene Felix and weighed it. I then weighed out 1% of that weight in hBN and looked at it.... Boy, it was a small sprinkle! So I settled on 2%. I melted the Polybutene Felix into its gorgeous honey colored hue and added the 2% hBN in stirring all the time. The color instantly turned to a tan/cream color and I continued stirring until thick as the hBN doesn't desolve. The finished sample 24 hours later looked just like SPG lube. It was still adhesive but less cohesive. The viscosity was thicker. I tried some in the primidonna (Marlin .25-20)
It was as accurate as the original formula and the basics (like no leading) were all intact.

The Marlin Model 94CL .25-20 is a BAD cold starter. Usually 2" dead high at 70 yards. Cold temps usually make it worse.... So it sat until one morning was 18F. It cold started only 5/8" high! Three more made a 3/4" group. I allow a couple minutes between shots. Later that afternoon at 34F I tried it again. The cold start was 7/8" high and 3 more went into 3/4" again.

Today I tried it again at 45F and rainy and the cold start was 1 1/2" high. Does it get better the colder it is??? Something to test and think about.....

The Savage .32-20 didn't cold start but 1/2" high at 18 degrees and again went right to group (good group).

I cast up some .41 Ranch Dog boolits from my 8.5bhn alloy. Gaschecked they weigh 263grs. Now I have this 10" Contender barrel in .41 Magnum. I had been shooting paper patch loads in it (260gr) I had throated this barrel to allow me to seat the boolits W A Y out! Like 1/8" or 3/16" only into the case way OUT! Basically it is a .414 Super Mag now and with the Ranch Dog boolit I can also test my outside lubricated theories as the lube is outside the case! 28grs of WW680 with a Winchester large rifle primer is just plain brutal! I guesstimated 1600fps... Three went into a 1" group at 70 yards!

Today I tested the new bHN formulation in it. I fouled 2 shots into the berm and then put three into wet magazines... This test was two fold and I wanted to see expansion #1 and remaining lube on the boolit #2. At 20 feet away the boolit will show lube if it remains in these paper tests.... The boolit was .80 caliber and was full weight! Could be over 1600fps?? Penetration depth like a .35 Remington..... Remaining lube?? Take a look for yourself.

Eutectic