"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Eutectic]

with that moly complex lube
[it is gonna take something real good to get me to not make it]
it's what i am using right now for deer hunting, okay mostly grouse sniping it seems.
but i have had no problems making head shots on grouse out to 30 yds from the 30-30 with a cold bbl.

Run, I guess I'm about 'moly' as Gear is about Alox 350! But you prove it out as our final "Extreme" formula I will graciously concede!

I love hunting Blues! Like you a 30 yard head shot wouldn't bother me either with my latest lube concoction even if I held on the neck to hit the head! Last time out for grouse we had .22 rimfires and we got between a pack of wolves (at least 6) and their fresh (half eaten) cow elk kill. We had that big head Lobo come down within 50 yards of us trying to run us off their dinner! With this said, I still want a cold start I can make a 100 yard running coyote (or even wolf) shot on without allowing some 'Kentucky Windage' for the cold start in the 'heat of the moment' so to speak! Also I'll have a big enough 'boolit' gun along. Either a bigger rifle or my short .44 in the shoulder holster backing up a smaller rifle. Looking at that 150lb yellow-eyed, bristled out collared male Wolf changed my outlook of what's enough gun for grouse!

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

i have no choice but to make head shots.
i tried just poking a cast boolit through the body.
after wandering around and picking up everything i could find.
except the cloud of feathers that rained down the whole time,i figured i was goood.

stupid wolves anyway,i have had a tag for the last few years after seeing them at least once a year,and haven't seen one since..
i know they are still about though, i find thier kills ocasionally..

i was pretty one eyed about the moly stuff also and i remember the moly craze years back, but after getting a bunch of combined technology 30 cal bullets for something like 10.00 a hundred a while back
i decided to use them in a 7.5 swiss rifle i bubba'd up and run about 75 bullets through it.
i hauled it around for deer hunting for a couple of years,put it away and started shooting cast in the second one i had that i left alone.
i thought about it one day about 6-7 years later, when i was going through some old targets, and check how the bbl looked and shot.
it was the same as i left it ,no noticeable difference in group size, and i couldn't see anything out of the ordinary with a bore light.

[Doc Highwall]

Instead of the moly grease in the lube how about a SMALL AMOUNT of moly powder.
The moly powder would not be affected by different temperatures and maybe could be just enough to keep the bore friction more stable for first shot placement.

[leftiye]

I've wondered about this too, it might (as you say) be part of the answer to getting lubricity in a dried barrel fouling. The powder drops out unless you stir it in when the lube is cool enough to be "creamy" consistency. Powder would be the way to go if you had another grease (which came without moly) that you wanted to use, and wanted moly too. Say sodium stearate thickened grease or some synthetic that was super good.

[leftiye]

We need to study oils or greases that don't lose solvents or aromatics to evaporation, (ie., don't have them in their formulations), and don't themselves dry out. Perhaps more so than we need super lubes, a given viscosity, or anything else. One way to do this would be to use things that come stored in packaging that isn't air tight (paper). A good lubricant that doesn't dry out mixed in Beeswax in a small proportion (like speed green if the two stroke oil didn't dry out), just enough lubricant to coat the barrel. Maybe Carnauba and moly in beeswax? Maybe with a little micro wax. I guess this would be very hard, though - use low melting point?.

[runfiverun]

Instead of the moly grease in the lube how about a SMALL AMOUNT of moly powder.
The moly powder would not be affected by different temperatures and maybe could be just enough to keep the bore friction more stable for first shot placement.

that's what kinda lead me to using it.
i was using it initially in the winter time to try and help hold heat in the lube longer.
if you heat a moly lube in the microwave it gets rediculously hot and stays hot for a long time.
the valve lube has much bigger pieces of moly in it than the lyman moly lube has.
it is also a ethylene glycol based lube.

[geargnasher]

A few comments......

Felix: The only thing I've found that shoots as well over as broad a temperature range as your own formula is Starmetal's formula, which is made from a "Vaseline" and a wax that will not be practical to duplicate. I have a sample of the wax but not the $1500 to have it assayed, and the modified petrolatum he uses is his little secret. None of the lithium-soap lubes are holding up in the extreme heat without modifications that detract from consistent accuracy even "cozy" shooting conditions, although high concentrations (NLGI #6 or better with an ISO 220 base oil) help. Keep in mind I'm talking from a "splitting hairs" perspective when I say that. FWFL using a Dexron VI-spec ATF subbed directly for the "mineral oil" works a bit better in cooler weather. Carnauba wax is "iffy" as a beneficial additive, except for a stiffener that aids handling/storing lubed boolits.

Brad, Eutectic, Leftiye, Run: With regard to the above conversations about "bore condition", there's one thing that Starmetal's lube does that is pretty unique among all the stuff I've tested: It has a consistent COF no matter the temp or it's physical state. I'm not talking consistent viscosity, I mean consistent FRICTION. I use a cobbled-together "wear tester" for all my lube formulas and keep a few rough notes on how different lubes fare when tested between a spinning steel arbor and a lead-alloy slug, and lately have taken to heating the surfaces and freezing them before performing various tests. Starmetal's lube (and several I've made myself based on the same concept) seem to provide about the same resistance whether frozen solid or melted, regardless of the film thickness. The stuff is also very soft, which allows it to work at low velocities as well as high velocity, and the very high melt point enables it to hold up in the heat and high velocity/pressure conditions without turning to puddles in the bore and causing purge flyers. I have high hopes for being able to make a repeatable facsimile with common components that will hold up in a reasonable range of shooting conditions. You guys will be the first to know when I get more time to test all this.

On the Moly Disulphide.... I hate the stuff for boolit lube. If you want something that "coats", ala Pepto-Bismol, think about Carnauba wax or ZDDP. Especially ZDDP.

In the meantime, if anyone wants to mess with it, any formula using one part Ivory soap, one part beeswax or paraffin wax/microwax blended to be about like beeswax, one part Fluidmaster toilet wax ring/Vaseline blended 50/50, and a dash of castor oil (3 Tablespoons per gallon) is a good general formula. I believe adding a bit of anything containing a high concentration of polybutene will help the shooting a great deal. If not using beeswax, slice the fresh, soft Ivory like cheese and melt the whole mess together until it's a light amber liquid (475F minimum) and pour quickly into moulds before it gels, which will be around 450-460F. If using beeswax, melt the other ingredients to the amber liquid stage first and cool while stirring constantly to 200F and add solid beeswax a little at a time until all melted into a paste to avoid scorching the wax. Cool to room temp and reheat to 200-250 several times to blend more completely.

Gear

[btroj]

Where the heck does one get polybutylene?

I may just add some toilet bowl ring to the soap lube I made months ago. Itis pretty dang stiff and could use some softening up.

[runfiverun]

i wasn't gonna throw out the soap lube untill the cooking issues were completly straightened out.
and some of the other ingredients could be found at retail outlets with some regularity.
i cast up a bunch of 452360 200 gr swc's today so ill probably re-visit the vaseline/ivory [gel] and b-wax lube again.
i'll see what happens with those way rounded lube grooves.
i'll give it a try in a couple of different guns.
the 625,1911,black hawk convertable,and one of the leverguns should be good nuff for an initial test.

[Eutectic]

Heavy-Duty cold starts.

This morning surprised me at 22F which could mean "Indian Summer" is weakening?

I did a quick test of two guns with what I call a Heavy-Duty cold start. The Winchester Model 92 .25-20 was about 1 week dirty and unfired while the Savage .32-20 was a day or two less than 2 weeks. Both were lubed with my latest lube tagged "Polybutene Felix" No first shot adjustment of any kind was used in these tests.

Guns and ammo were out early to 'normalize' at 22F.

The .25-20 shot the first round (cold start) 1/2" dead high. The next three were in 3/4" and point of aim. These were shot at 85 yards.

The .32-20 Savage put the first round 2" high and 5/8" right. Three more went into 1/2" and point of aim. (for this particular load) These were shot at 70 yards. The first shot appears to me to have made a dirtier hole in the target?? I've photoed the target so you can see and give me an opinion if the hole looks dirtier or different.

I plan to let the cold start be what I'm shooting (without adjustment) until I get below zero tests complete.

The polybutene Felix formula has spanned fifty degrees with superb accuracy. My plan is to get a pattern for cold starts as it gets colder. Both the time dirty and the coldness reached seems to making the cold start worse.

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

That's pretty doggone good right there, Eutectic. I wonder if the castor oil is gumming up the residue so the first shot builds more pressure and flies a touch high, or alters the exit timing slighly on the node. Definetely sounds like a residue viscosity issue, but DANG, if you have it down to less than an inch at 75 yards with a formula that I'd bet money will also shoot in the heat, you may be on to something. I wonder how that lube would cold-start from a cold-soaked gun that had been lightly cleaned and patched almost dry. Might be able to tune the clean-barrel first shot right into the group that way, at least at those temps.

Gear

[runfiverun]

if the second shot is the low one in the group it appears to be cleaning up a bit as you go along.
a clean dry patch before the first shot????

[Eutectic]

if the second shot is the low one in the group it appears to be cleaning up a bit as you go along.
a clean dry patch before the first shot????

Yeah, the second shot was the low one in the group. 3rd and 4th have the fall colors for a background!

This is a 'peppy' .32-20 load going 1775fps with a 111gr HP. It's the Ranch Dog design boolit with the small lube grooves for LLA. I drill the HP as it is more accurate that way and more coyote worthy. The point I want to make is I have filled the crimp groove with lube as well.... Mainly because the finger lubing for lube testing is easier. Both my Winchester and my Savage .32-20's have too short of a throat and the crimp groove is inside the case with the ogive touching the lands. I don't crimp for the bolt guns.

I have used these Ranch Dog designs with great results because they hold less lube. I believe the .32-20 may be still carrying too much lube so I have loaded some rounds to test with no lube in the crimp groove. I'll try them on a cold morning after this moisture leaves.

I plan to see where the cold starts go and the temperature limit of Polybutene Felix... (if it has one!) It shoots so GOOD I'll do something for the cold starts when hunting. Cold starts in several guns (and lubes) seem to show worsening affects as temps drop. I also need to find the time required to have the bore go 'cold start' mode again when temps are minus.... I'm betting the time is short!

We had a saying in the 'old days'...... "Spread too thin!" It had to do with too many work assignments given all at once!

I am shooting my hot and fast Hornet loads only using the bottom lube groove without any problem....... Maybe Polybutene Felix likes "Spread too thin!" ??

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

that's one trait i really like about the moly lube is it really doesn't care how many lube grooves are used.
it seems to do fine with one or three.
it's also something i still have to try with the simple green lube, i have been lubing by hand with that too so it's slowing things down.

i'll put the recipe for that lube here in case somebody comes along in a year or so and want's to read all this.

4-oz's b- wax solid not melted.
2 tsp level 2 stroke oil
2 tsp level dexron atf
4 tsp white petrolatum
1/8th tsp lanolin

melt the b-wax [take off the heat] pour everything in and stir,add the lanolin at the end,
pour out to cool.

you can modify the oils or the vaseline to suit your b-wax
or skip the lanolin [it does add some flex to the lube though]

[geargnasher]

that's one trait i really like about the moly lube is it really doesn't care how many lube grooves are used.
it seems to do fine with one or three.

I've felt from the beginning of this that the best formula shouldn't seem to care too much about amount used (number of grooves, size of groove, etc.). Friction characteristics of the lube control that. If the lube melts too much as the barrel gets hot and a lot of grooves are lubed, it can caus problems. That's why some formulas need the metal soaps to control oil leakage out of the carrier.

Gear

[runfiverun]

remember that's why we started stearating greases in the first place..
it was to control the oils. and the release of them.
and why felix uses the ivory in his lube.

the simple lube above is right on the minimalist end of oils for this reason too.
you cold easily double the amount of 2 stroke,or add a spoon full of the cold weather version to it in addition to what's there.and not really change the outcome of the lube.

the only thing i need to really watch is the cold bbl thing i just haven't had time to give it a good test yet.

[leftiye]

Where the heck does one get polybutylene?

I may just add some toilet bowl ring to the soap lube I made months ago. Itis pretty dang stiff and could use some softening up.

Ah seconds that emotion. Where do you get it?

[felix]

It's Polybutene, not Polybutylene. It's the spreader-sticker in the lube. I have never used it. Please keep the research up! ... felix

[geargnasher]

Getting closer now.

Still working with the Sodi-Bee/Vaseline concept with polybutene added, and I've tested several slightly different versions, mostly the differences were in the "additive package".

The basic formula is still equal parts by dry weight fresh Ivory soap, Vaseline, and Randyrat's hard, yellow beeswax. The "additive package" has been several things, either 1/12 part Synthetic Lucas oil, a mix of 1/18 part castor and 1/108 part straight polybutene, same mix with AC 100 ester oil subbed for castor, or 1/18 part regular Lucas oil treatment. With the latter three, I upped the Vaseline about 20%.

Working with my Savage 30-30 a few days ago and then again today, I turned in multiple sub-1" groups at 50 yards with iron sights, which is great for me. The castor/polybutene version cold-started on me, about an inch high and right, from a fouled barrel this morning, which was an unusually cool 42 F. I dry-patched, shot two with the synthetic Lucas, let it cold-soak outside for 45 minutes, and shot a nice, round group with the same lube again. Zero leading in this pitted old bore, it seems to just love the polybutene, but evidently the castor wasn't slick enough in the cold or something. There was zero lube star at all with the castor/polybutene, and only a faint trace of black oily film with the synthetic Lucas version.

I'm pumped now, I think I finally got the "right stuff" together between all of you, especially Starmetal Joe and Eutectic for the idears, and Bruce381 for the STUFF!

Each time I tweak the formula or select ingredients, I'm keeping in mind the availability and consistent quality of components. Ivory soap is a constant, as is Lucas oil. Beeswax is probably close enough as long as it's filtered. Vaseline has changed from what it was years ago, much for the worse as far as boolit lube goes with all the hydro-cracking and super-refining going on nowdays where every drop of every fraction is used or micro-refined for another purpose, but for now at least it's constant. The Polybutene in the Lucas oil is "the great equalizer" here, it makes the Vaseline what it should be, an EP cushion. It also helps keep the lube together, which counteracts the tendency of even sodium stearate grease to work-soften in the presence of wax (Lithium stearate grease is TERRIBLE about being thixotropic when mixed with any sort wax, sodium much less). The small bit of light PAO oil the synthectic Lucas adds to the lube along with the polybutene and other goodies and serves to take the "grab" out of the lube when frozen, which I feel is going to really help the cold weather performance, but doesn't add too much slickum if you don't overdo the percentage. The soap keeps the lube pretty firm to way above the fry point of the beeswax, plenty firm enough it won't migrate out of lube grooves. Yes, it does take 30% or more by weight in the form of fresh, soft Ivory soap. The beeswax does whatever it does, even when modified heavily with soap, Vaseline, and polybutene. So far it seems to be doing the trick, even though it can't take the heat required to fully gel with the other stuff.

So far the version with the synthetic Lucas and equal parts everything else is looking pretty darn good, and is the one I'm going to test further out of all the versions so far because it has the closest uniformity of sliding friction at all temps. I think it also has CORE per Eutectic's definition. For now I'm going to call it Yellow Jacket Lube. I want to know how it works in a smooth bore, and at higher than 1900 fps, and as a patch lube, and with really deep lube grooves.

Eutectic, with your Polybutene Felix, you might try the synthetic Lucas instead of bar oil and castor, but not as much by volume because it might be too slippery. Maybe mix it with Vaseline about 50/50 and make your grease with that, cool and add the wax. If you pour the coals to it you can melt fresh, wet Ivory with the Lucas oil and take it all the way to 475F when it quits foaming to gel it. You'll know when it's hot enough because it will go from gooey to completely liquid, and will smoke a good bit. As soon as it all goes liquid pour it into a cooler container, it only takes a minute or so for it to start turning darker and the residual container heat will kill it. Clean your grease-making pan ASAP by wiping out with paper towels or the junk will cook on there badly.

Gear

[5Shot]

For your additives does the 1/12, 1/18, etc. refer to the weight of the additive in relation to the soap, Vaseline and bees wax (combined) or is it 1/12 the weight of the soap?

Also, does it matter what weight (viscosity) of Lucas Synthetic you use?