"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

i have noticed the "a bit left" from a cold bbl start also,
with several lubes and temps,i was getting a little left, sometimes high [usually] and sometimes a bit low the little low were always much closer to the group and were usually same day shots.

the lowered load dropping into the group on the first shot is proving that bore condition is the real culprit here,and is also proving out why the MML lube works in the cold on the first shot.
it's what lead me to start using atf in my lubes as a bore conditioner. [hoping it would hang out in the bore keeping everything in a more consistent state]

[geargnasher]

Eutectic, you're both ahead and behind me! Being a bit frustrated with castor oil, lanolin, and the ester oils as lube ingredients myself, and with Bruce and you both smacking me in the head with the polybutene stuff, I made a batch of lube using equal parts Ivory soap and Yaley Shaping Wax (a micro/macro blend similar to beeswax, but minus the low burn temp and shrinkage factor of beeswax) together with Lucas full-synthetic engine oil additive at a rate of two tablespoons per 4 ounces of soap/wax (IF I remember right, I'm 1100 miles away from my notes at the moment).

This made a very agreeable lube, soft yet having some body, superb "smearability" as I call it (it makes a transparent feather edge when smeared between the fingers), it is tacky but definetely more cohesive than adhesive, and is NOT thixotropic like lithium-based thickeners, meaning it doesn't significantly work-soften.

I didn't have a chance to test any before I left, but your reports here are very encouraging. Like I said a few posts back, the polybutene appears to be a definite "keeper" ingredient, if only because it is by far the most effective film-strength additive I've found for separating boolit/barrel steel. I didn't think about it leaving some possibly beneficial deposits in the barrel (Alox??), but that makes sense in light of the two-cycle oil test. I'm interested to see if the polybutene "spiderwebs" prove out over time with "seasoning" and cleaning routines, and also with the full range of temperatures.

Felix lube is an excellent formula to start with, and like was discussed way back in the beginning, a "synthetic" Felix lube might be a good way to go, the key ingredients being beeswax and using sodium stearate as a grease gellant rather than traditional lithium complexes. You want some lubricating oils in there, but not too much!!!, and it needs an EP addtive bigtime. I believe the polybutene will replace the lanolin quite well, and probably not have the cold-weather issues. I think you're really on to something here.

Gear

[Jbiker]

I'm sorta new to this aspect of the discussion...BUT ..How about baker's parchment paper ?it's chlorine free and need's no lubing, work's over a range of baking temperatures and stay's together. so just guessing here , might it work for paper patching boolit's ?

JBiker in Mass

[longbow]

Not sure how parchment paper fits into an extreme boolit lube thread but I'll bite!

I had the same idea about parchment paper but found I could not patch boolits well with it and it doesn't wet so doesn't stick or tighten on drying.

I even tried removing whatever slick non stick additive they use by soaking in mineral spirits. That didn't help either.

So if your parchment paper is like what I find, the answer from my perspective is no it doesn't work. I think the paper is great but it needs to be without the slippery/non wetting additive.

Now, as for the extreme boolit lube quest, I am not anywhere near in the same league as these guys. Not even close, but... (the ominous "but") something I did find in agreement is that Ivory soap seems to really work well. I also stole Felix's basic idea but headed a little different way and made a mix of:

- regular paraffin wax (because that's all I had)
- Lucas Red 'N Tacky grease
- Ivory soap

I messed with proportions a bit and it made a really slick lube that seemed to work well but did not have enough tack to it so didn't stick to the boolit well. So I added some Bardahl oil treatment. That fixed the tack/stickiness.

I like the soap type lube so far, so I am glad to see more success using the soap type lube. I also like cheap and readily available "stuff" to mix up. I am following with interest here. Way beyond me for the most part but interesting for sure.

Longbow

[runfiverun]

you definatly want a paper that stretches a bit when wet and shrinks when it dry's.
i just got ahold of a ream of 25% cotton vellum paper [sigh time constraints]
for some more trials in the future.

the ivory soap is showing some promise and is gonna be used at a later date with a recipe we tossed around earlier [and then got some input on from another direction]
i know gear has been reworking the ivory soap lube.
there is/was some cooking issues to work on.

i just found [a few days back] a half pound of some red [lith based] lube in the garage i modified with ivory some time back then completly forgot about.... doh!

[Marlin Junky]

Eutectic,

Kudos on your work... I just now got a chance to read your last report (post 1241).

Have you ever considered one of the Redline Drag Racing oils; e.g.,

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=16&pcid=1

Look over the spec's... there are a couple selections with extremely low pour points at about 13 bucks a quart.

BTW, the Stihl Bar and Chain lube comes in two weights. Are you thinking about trying the "Winter Weight" and do you think it really needs to be polymerized with Castor Oil?

MJ

[Eutectic]

BTW, the Stihl Bar and Chain lube comes in two weights. Are you thinking about trying the "Winter Weight" and do you think it really needs to be polymerized with Castor Oil?

MJ

MJ,

I went into this testing way back thinking thin and 'super' lube qualities for 'extreme's' base oil. I think that now could be going down the wrong 'slippery' path. I agree with Gear on keeping oils in lower percentages.

My gut says keep the Castor Oil in and polymerize it with the Iso 220 (heavier) mineral base oil in the Stihl oil. Castor Oil hangs tough in heat: hates the cold viscosity wise. Some type of oil formulation is needed to help the Castor and 'season' the bore exactly the same. Tall order that has been our target from the start! I dabble trying to keep barrel deposits the same cold as warmer or at least see a controllable ammunition fix for that first shot. This modified 'Felix' has behaved quite well and I look forward to seeing minus temps. 50 degrees spread so far with NO accuracy issues. (It seems to like the 'lower' side of my testing better for groups; but more sensitive to the cold start.)

I did test my old Winchester Model 92 SRC .25-20 with it. Morning lighting has been nice for my 7"dia. white circle against black background. I can center my smoked bead into it like an eclipse and shoot the tang peep very well (especially for an old guy) Yesterday morning the 'Polybutene Felix' grouped 3/4" on my 85 yard target with NO cold start movement! Will try again this morning. Gun and ammo outside.....soaking ..... about 27F.

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

castor oil was/i believe still is, a component in some two stroke oils.
the thin oils will get us in some trouble as the oils are what we are trying to control.
that was what lead us down the path of stearating the lithium greases to a thicker state.
we were trying to pull in and hold the oils that would bleed out, or just run amok in the bbl.

in a way i think this is what the carnuba is doing to the lube.
with it's extra hardening effect it's just locking things in a shell.
also it just has a secondary affect of oxidizing over [shrinking in the cold] creating 1st shot bbl condition issues.[because it is the bore conditioner]
the 2 stroke oils are keeping the carnuba "coated" fighting the oxidization and it's shell affect on the lube.
i think it tries to layer out to the surface like copper does in an alloy.

[felix]

Corky and I need to replenish our "daily" lube stock this month sometime. Need a consensus formula within a week or two from you guys. Need components with their cooking permutation. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Does anyone know the component of chain saw lube that provides the "stickiness"?

MJ

[runfiverun]

don i believe it's trade name is "paratack".
i was/am using lucas oil treatment as a plasticizer/tackifier before.

Felix:
i'm using E-purple in my leverguns,and revolvers made with aluminum stearate.
in my rifles it's still my moly complex.
it's about a kitchen sink lube with b-wax60%/soy wax40%,a little candle parrafin 5%,some white lith @30% of the melted waxes,xlox15%,and a titch of lanolin@2%,modified with atf i tsp per 1.5 oz.
all done at b-wax melt temp
to all this i break off about 2 ivory soap bar sized pieces and add a big golf ball sized piece of moly valve lube. [made with glycol esters]
you don't melt it to add the moly or it will fall to the bottom, you just heat it enough to get a blender to go through it,add the moly lube and blend till smooth.
this has been very accurate and has allowed velocity's over 2700 fps.
it need some more first shot testing though.
and the ethlene glycol based j-lube has done well in testing over the summer, it needs some cold weather shooting though.
it is not condusive to modification however.

gear has made a soap lube that is showing some good promise though, i have the recipe somewhere.
it's very similar to the vaseline/ivory/slack wax lube i proposed some jillion [maybe 15] pages ago.
but the cooking is a bit tricky.

[leftiye]

MJ,

I went into this testing way back thinking thin and 'super' lube qualities for 'extreme's' base oil. I think that now could be going down the wrong 'slippery' path. I agree with Gear on keeping oils in lower percentages.

My gut says keep the Castor Oil in and polymerize it with the Iso 220 (heavier) mineral base oil in the Stihl oil. Castor Oil hangs tough in heat: hates the cold viscosity wise. Some type of oil formulation is needed to help the Castor and 'season' the bore exactly the same. Tall order that has been our target from the start! I dabble trying to keep barrel deposits the same cold as warmer or at least see a controllable ammunition fix for that first shot. This modified 'Felix' has behaved quite well and I look forward to seeing minus temps. 50 degrees spread so far with NO accuracy issues. (It seems to like the 'lower' side of my testing better for groups; but more sensitive to the cold start.)

I did test my old Winchester Model 92 SRC .25-20 with it. Morning lighting has been nice for my 7"dia. white circle against black background. I can center my smoked bead into it like an eclipse and shoot the tang peep very well (especially for an old guy) Yesterday morning the 'Polybutene Felix' grouped 3/4" on my 85 yard target with NO cold start movement! Will try again this morning. Gun and ammo outside.....soaking ..... about 27F.

Eutectic

Any possibility of making those deposits remain soft and not lose their lubricity? Ie it might not be necessary to fight the high viscosity in the cold.

[Eutectic]

Any possibility of making those deposits remain soft and not lose their lubricity? Ie it might not be necessary to fight the high viscosity in the cold.

Ahhhhhh.......... It is but one piece of the puzzle called "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest... that we have worked on diligently for some 1253 posts now! (including many personal hours from some)

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

that soft bore condition is what we are searching for.
hence the oil control,poe's, poa's, poly butenes,poly glocols,ethylene glycols, wax modifications,stearates,and soaps.
plus the up and down modifications.

[leftiye]

Sorry, I guess you have to come out and say it at some point or I don't get it. It seemed more like everybody had abandoned any idea of a bore coating and was trying to not have a coated bore (which can't be done I'd guess). As much as saying that bore coating was bad and trying to not have one. Trying to engineer a lube that functioned on a one off basis. I kinda think that given the proper bore coating (and if it stayed there) lube wouldn't be needed. In any event, I guess we're gonna have something residual in the bore whether you think it is the whole enchilada or not, and we're gonna have to cope with it. And it has to allow first shots to be properly friction reduced (slippery).

[btroj]

The big problem isn't just the film left in the bore by the previous shot. The big issue is how stable is that film over time. Does it change? If that film gets dry, sticky, or changes in some other way with time or temp, then we have a problem. We now have a first shot going thru a bore with different properties than the res of the shots will for thru.
What oil doesn't dry out, get thicker with cold, or otherwise change over time when in a very thin film? It also has to handle the fouling and other lube ingredients it is mixed with.

[leftiye]

Dry wax. Like on a .22. Still have different hardness due to temp though. It looks like the answer is that you either coat the bore or coat the boolit. Coating the boolit with something that doesn't come off is the only bore condition that won't change. Of course that's ignoring combustion products from the powder.

[felix]

Thank you very much, 5R5! However, doesn't the formula seem a little entangled for what we all want, including yourself? This reasoning stems from the risk involved in making modifications to large batches for any number of mistakes within the feeds, mixing, heating, etc. No problem for small batches, but Corky and I are going to have only one shot per year at the very most, and it is probably more like every two going on five years as we age. Keep in mind we will all might tempt LAR and/or BS to take on the board's production of the consensus lube. ... felix

[runfiverun]

the bigger issue is obtaining some of the ingredients.
that valve lube isn't at the cal ranch store...
everything else is just buying in bulk and keeping it on a shelf.
those are the simple instructions by the way..

i have made the recipe substituting a stick of lymans moly lube,foregoing the last mixing step and cutting the xlox down to 10%.
but haven't had a chance to shoot it.
i have three lubes made up that have not seen a bbl yet and another recipe i haven't even made.

[runfiverun]

i'm still 40 pages back in the testing phase of many of the lubes i have made,slowly plodding along watching things over different temperatures and long shooting strings.
a lot of the lubes i made are try and see types but the stearated versions are the ones i am still shooting,along with that moly complex lube
[it is gonna take something real good to get me to not make it]
it's what i am using right now for deer hunting, okay mostly grouse sniping it seems.
but i have had no problems making head shots on grouse out to 30 yds from the 30-30 with a cold bbl.