"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[geargnasher]

LOL after reading a few pages here you guys are all over as far as lubes go with so many questions It would take years to splan it all.

With wild guess as to lets mix this or that to make this or that. Im all for testing out stuff but keep it simple and start with 1 or 2 ideas.

Just cause pig fat works for boolit lube it is not an answer for all applications.

1 Define the application
2 then 4-5 properties that the lube needs.
maybe start with known product like LARS RED or the felix lube and go from there

Then i will can round up some test samples of thickeners and additves.

Gear i will get what additves and thickeners you want to try just go slow and ask 1 or 2 questions at a time because some questions asked here will take a book to answer.
Gear I will send a box of stuff next week to keep you busy.

bruce

I'm both a first-class Redneck and a mechanic, so that might 'splain a few things for y'all. I do have all 32 of my teeth, though, and they're straight, and I don't drink much beer or have any dogs, but the rest of the Foxworthy jokes more or less apply. "If you try to lubricate your bullets with the stuff your sister dug out of her dog's ear, you might be a Redneck."

I do appreciate the access to some real compounding stuff, Bruce, I'll see what I can come up with.

I also outlined, in the opening post of this thread, some basic properties of lube as I understand it, and I think I have most of it covered even if I don't understand it very well:

[snip] So, from cartridge case to target a lube must seal the bore like engine oil seals compression in a reciprocating engine, it must provide a consistent runway surface (for consistent friction), and it must either remain in the grooves all the way to the target or leave the boolit immediately and completely upon muzzle exit once its job in the barrel is completed so it doesn't affect the balance of the boolit on the free path to the target.

In order to do this, a boolit lube must:
1. Have the correct viscosity to match the pressure sealing requirements of a given load and alloy,
2. Have the correct amount of "drag" each shot, which may be a factor of both viscosity and lubricity,
3. Have the correct lubricity to maintain consistent bore surface,
4 Maintain the correct viscosity and lubricity through temperature extremes of both atmosphere, chamber, and barrel,
5. Have enough tack to stick to a boolit during handling, storage, and loading,
6. Not have so much tack that it only partially jettisons in flight.
7. Some other things that strike me as important are the ability of a lube to be left in a barrel without danger of corrosion, no "weeping" of oils in the heat to contaminate powder, no bad reaction with the cartridge brass during long-term storage, immunity to humidity, and compatibility with standard lube application equipment.
[snip].

After much cogitation and discussion, I think R5R has condensed it pretty well:

>The lube has to be something like a grease or putty in consistency.
>It must have a component that leaves a consistent film of "lube" in the barrel from zero to 110F.
>It must not contaminate powder, or leak oils up to (say) 250F
>it must not dry out in temps from -20 to 250F
>It must be adhesive enough to stay on the boolit until it's loaded, yet not so much that it survives the forces of decompression on muzzle exit and the "centrifugal" force of the boolit's spin.
>It must "wet" the bore steel the same way every shot, and leave a film behind that is stable for many days or weeks such that the interaction of the boolit/bore on the next shot will be the same as the last
>The biggest issue I can see right now is not knowing what the base oil viscosity must be, but the tips on the different oil types and VI's is a big help.

Me trying to figure this out is kind of like a pharmacist trying to find a cure for cancer with the drugs he already has on his shelves.

Gear

[btroj]

Sure, a pharmacist joke froma redneck mechanic. Thanks Gear.

I find this an interesting discussion. I have no knowledge on grease at all so I am in over my head. I would be quite willing to test any formula that comes along.

I can also say that a viable lube must be made from reasonably accesavle ingredients and be relatively easy to make. Complex ingredients or recipes tend to be the bane of the kitchen chemist. Well, outside of meth labs.

[geargnasher]

I forgot to mention, I think we know the limiting factors with Felix lube and Carnauba Red, it's the waxes that are used for thickeners/carriers. Beeswax is the best carrier common lubes have, it can be used to make a lube that works to -20F or 110F, but so far not both in one formula. Let's compare Speed Green to Felix Lube, because I know what's in them. Glenn puts something like seven different waxes in Carnauba Red, so it's tough to talk about that. Speed Green just has a very low-viscosity, synthetic lubricant added to the beeswax in about a 1:3 proportion. It works pretty well in the heat, too, but it just hasn't held up to the same hot-weather accuracy standards as Felix lube. Felix lube uses a small amount of polymerized castor oil and mineral oil as lubricants, together with a touch of lanolin for tack and pliability. Carnauba wax is extra, and detracts from it's cold-weather performance. There's also a small amount of sodium stearate to help keep the ingredients from separating as the liquid lube cools, and helps "bind the whole mess together" as Felix puts it. I don't know what the limiting factor really is with Felix lube, but I think the castor oil gets too "thick" in really cold weather and affects the lube "film" in the barrel. I'd stick my neck out to say that below 40 degrees I think Speed Green might have an edge over the Felix, but I haven't really shot either side by side in enough different guns to make a definite claim.

Now for another SWAG at it, I wonder how ISO 100 automotive air-conditioning oil would work mixed with beeswax, of better yet, fumed silica?

Gear

Gear

[runfiverun]

the biggest obstacle will be the viscosity,and the oil in the bbl.
i am still confused by my sticks being a #2 and chassis grease being a #2.
unless that's just a base designation.

but i now have a good idea of the base, and the thickener [binder?]
it's now what is the best lube, and modifier.
yeah that's how i think of it still.

i am also wondering about being able to fit stuff like castor oil and carnuba into the equasion.
even reading msds sheets is not giving up the necessary information.
it's like all the company's want you to design a lube and they sell you something.
i come close to filling out one of thier sheets with the above specifications and drop in 180,000 rpm ,2700 fps,and 55k of pressure.
just to see if i got a response.

[357maximum]

I really like where this is heading....fairly rapidly too.

I have beat the proverbial microwax/wax/beeswax/grease/oil thing to death and back. The answer does not lie there IMHO. I could only get one or the other regarding cold/hot lube.

I have used the extreme HP gas valve greases back when I was on gas distribution. Some of them may work but I no longer have access to them to test. Most of the ones I handled were used to slow or stop a leaking gas valve until "real" repairs could be made. My lyman 45 lubesizers would likely balk at applying them....in fact I am pretty sure of it.

Personally I feel that the suspended microsized paper particle idea has more merit and a better chance of overall success for the home lubecook. The right chemist/lube engineer could prove me wrong.....I wish he would.

keep digging....we are listening.

[geargnasher]

Sure, a pharmacist joke froma redneck mechanic. Thanks Gear.

I find this an interesting discussion. I have no knowledge on grease at all so I am in over my head. I would be quite willing to test any formula that comes along.

I can also say that a viable lube must be made from reasonably accesavle ingredients and be relatively easy to make. Complex ingredients or recipes tend to be the bane of the kitchen chemist. Well, outside of meth labs.

I didn't want you to feel left out.

Complex ingredient lists and cooking instructions are the bane of meth labs, too, ask anyone from Missouri!

As soon as the smoke clears and R5R or I come up with something we think might work, we'll be heeding a bunch of second opinions, you're definetely on the short list in my mind, thanks for the offer.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Michael, I'm not ruling anything out yet, but I agree the conventional wax+oil/grease is mature technology.

Paper can handle the speed, will stop leaks, and fling off, the question is, how to mix paper fibers with something to make it stick in the grooves. Just one more thing to think about.

Gear

[runfiverun]

making the paper lube would be easy enough i cannot figure out how to get it to apply to the boolit so that it will do any better than a standard size/wrap/lube/size, patch.
i can wrap, i swage jacketed stuff too.

this is something completely different.
we might not find perfection, i am realistic about that.
if we can find something that works better than the "j" lube i have now.
we will be oh-so-close.
that would be an improvement over conventional lubes.
and once enough people start to use something, further improvements will be made.
it's just the way we casters are.

[geargnasher]

The paper fiber thing was some of my earlier musings on finding stable oil carriers other than waxes, not so much a shortcut to a paper jacket. I know Metamucil doesn't work, though! Nothing we can put in the grooves will come close to a real jacket except for maybe powder-coat paint.

I think you're on to something with that thick grease. If the guys at Voodoo can make it work, so can we.

Gear

[357maximum]

If a tuuupid yellerjacket can make paper with his mouth........I am pretty sure we could find a way to make paper congeal enough for our use.

I had thought about the paper pulp thing alot a few years ago I just never pursued it. Quite honestly when it hits anything over 85-90 degrees with our humidity I ain't doing much shooting. You will fine me in front of some form of machine with a big ol snowflake button on it. How you all handle that 100 degree plus stuff is beyond me meager mind....yall is crazy I say.

[BulletFactory]

they already have this any temperature, any gun any velocity lube. Its called

COPPER





....

[BulletFactory]

just a thought on paper, you could try to clamp it in a vice, a book at a time, leaving a quarter inch above the jaws and grind it with a belt sander. When thats ground down, raise it another 1/4" and repeat. You'll probably wind up with a paper powder. Not sure, but it seems like it might be worth a shot.

[runfiverun]

see that's the kind of thinking that got us [between the two threads 200 posts.] to this point.
and has given some ideas that would not have even been thought of.

probably a few people shaking thier heads at these two nut jobs too.

i have enough stuff on hand here to make something like 40 lbs of good quality lube that would cover probably 90% of my needs forever.
but...

with the help from bruce, with his knowledge some parameters and some shooting this can be done.
at the least i think we have identified why we have issues with the first shot,and over long strings of shots.
and will gain more knowledge of conventional lubes in the process too.
it has taken me a long time to get my moly lube set up to work properly and then along come cold weather, and i have to fix it, it's a good lube but not perfect.
heck we don't need perfect we just need a wider window.

[btroj]

Yes, a wider window. I could live with cold arrel flyers below 20 as I shoot very little when it is that cold. It is the issues at 40 that irritate me. That eliminates a few months of potential shooting for me.
The various knowledge bases we have on this site amazes me. Then along comes a guy who may well have precisely the right knowledge at the right time?

On the paper pulp idea. Would a pulp lube need to be on the bands of the bullet or do you think it could work as well being in the grease grooves only? I just wonder ifmit almost needs to be more like a tumble lube to give full coverage to bearing surfaces like a paper patch does. Just wondering.

[Armorer]

As far as the paper pulp needing a binder, what about something like guargum? I have used it to bind wood dust/pulp for making handmade incense. It is also quite sticky when wet. Not sure if it would be too hard when dry though and may crumble from the lube groove. Just a thought.

[runfiverun]

guar gum forms a paper/plastic like substance when it dries.
it's benefits would be in the lube.
i think that a paper saturated in oils/lube stuff would work fine in the lube grooves.

[geargnasher]

"Fiber-reinforced grease" was my operating concept for the paper-pulp lube. I wanted to try the really fine dust from the collector on my random DA orbital sander, but I worry about stray grit particles from the sandpaper.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

you could sort that out of it by bathing the pulp, the grit will sink.

[Marlin Junky]

I don't understand why you guys are considering paper fiber. The paper jacket works because the two metals (Pb & steel) are prevented from contacting each other along the major bearing surface. If you can get the paper fiber down to a size that will flow around tiny crevasses in the boolit/barrel seal, why not just use colloidal graphite which is a proven lubricant.

MJ

[shooter93]

Has anyone experimented with lubes divided into 2 categories....all polar and all non polar ingredients and not mixing the two? Or has anyone used synthetic spermaceti to any extent as an ingredient? Charlie Dell at one time suggested to us that he thought it could have real possibilities but I never took it very far and I mostly looked towards all polar ingredients for several reasons and thought more in terms of "slider" greases and oils as opposed to high pressure ones? Or possibly Castor wax as a base or an addition to bees wax?