"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[felix]

As for the final lube, it makes no difference where an individual component comes from. We are talking different "radicals" being combined from the various components. For example, a typical soap we acquire might or might not include imbedded glycerin, water and other evaporative radicals. Same with a so-called reagent grade stearate unless it is synthesised (to be 100 percent). The chemical companies will gladly send one pound samples of stearate for a typical checkout, especially if it is derived from animal or vegetable sources. Talk about various lots of powder, the stearates I have obtained over the years take the home the cake and that alone might account for a bad lot of finished lube.

Various waxes are made by supplying hydrogen atoms as we all know. By doing so, the level of hydrogenation can be controlled. There usually is a VERY different wax made by each amount of hydrogen addition. For example, a wax can be made to be water miscible, or very soluble.

Therefore, to cook with a smoking level desired or not is the question. Naturally, It depends on what is being driven off and if that is desired to be driven off. It's guaranteed the final lube will be different, but will it matter on the target? Can the lube be duplicated from scratch by another person (company) with other feed lots? These are our only real concerns for making the ultimate "BooLIT|||LooB".

... felix

[Bodine]

Examples please? Don't really understand what you are getting at. Just no hydrocarbons due to the ash?

Exactly the ash is the problem, alox is nothing more than partially burned hydrocarbon chains or


originally developed as a rust preventive.

Synthetic greases, work the best when dealing with viscosity issues. The oils seem to be a little too thin and smoke more.

So here you guys go for the base formula. All by weight and I get down to the grain.

No more than 10% caranuba, cutting it back to suit your purpose or to soften the end result. (not JPW, it has hydrocarbons as a carrier)

33% synthetic grease of your choice

33% Filtered white beeswax ( no inert sugars or pollen)

15% Cetyl Esters NF

no more than 10% Sodium Stearate, will make the lube harder and more brittle.

If you want more or less color use the candle wax coloring drops, not the blocks as they are paraffin based.

Now when you cook this there is a specific order to melt it.

1. Caranuba till completely melted.
2. Beeswax till completely melted
3. Cetyl Esters NF untill completely melted.
4. Sodium Stearate until melted
5. Base grease - this is were the work comes in. Your have to turn the heat all of the way up and stir until the grease blends in, it will take some time which is why I made a stand over my hot plate and pot and use an electric drill with a stirring paddle to stir, low speed.
I have a thermocouple and pid controller to keep the heat around 350 - 400 degrees F and I cook it for a about 1/2 hour at that temp.
You need that heat to combine the chemical chains into a new compound.
I then turn off the heat and continue stirring until around 175 degrees F and pout it into the prepped molds. I then let it sit overnight and remove the lube from the tubes and there ya have it.

Hopefully this should be enough to give you guys a jump forward on your project.

[utk]

I Googled "Cetyl Esters NF" and came up with this supplier:

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/cetyl-esters-nf.html

Cetyl Esters NF
CAS No. 977067-67-6
Cetyl Esters NF is a wax mixture consisting primarily of esters of saturated fatty alcohols and saturated fatty acids. It can be used in emulsions and anhydrous products to impart a lubricous feel and soft gloss to these formulations. It can also increase viscosity and improve stability.

Recommended Use Rate: 2 - 7%
Appearance: White flakes
Required HLB: 10

INCI: Cetyl Esters

[popper]

Tried an interesting experiment this morning while preping cases. I put a MAPP gas torch on a carnuba/canola oil mix(~20/80), blue flame directly on the lube. The pan I used had a little lead in it. The lead melted, the lube melted. About 2 min with the torch on the melt, I got a few wisps of smoke. I expected it to burn off and leave some residue - didn't happen, also no boiling, liquid just moved around with the flame tip. I scraped the pan after cooling to try to get any reside off the bottom, under the lube - none. My conclusion is there is no combustible and soot due to smoke is really hard to get. So yes it will accumulate in the bore, like alox( it is darker and has the consistency and feel like LLA at room temp). Any fluid lube would mix with powder residue and then solidify - really neat stuff we don't want in the bore. So far the wax does hold oil at 90/10 and is firm @100F. The test I did with echo oil in 40SW did show a slight leakage out of the case after 2 days. Haven't seen that with the canola oil, it's more viscous.

[geargnasher]

That's interesting. I take it the Cetyl esters NF is an additional gellant, but as much as you cook that stuff I can see that some things are going to get rearraged chemically. The oil in the synthetic grease will be unaffected by the heat or other ingredients, so basically the waxes cook together and if the mix is hot enough, the metal soap in the grease and the sodium stearate melt and combine everything.

I've noticed there's a much different effect to a finished lube if you use a grease heated beyond it's drop point as opposed to just melting wax and physically blending/dissolving a metal-soap grease into it. If the stearate melts, it bonds to the entire contents. If not, then it's a mixture of grease and wax rather than a true solution of gelled wax and oil.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

It has to do with the residue left behind from the burn of the paraffin, partial burned hydrocarbons act much like Alox.

I have no idea what question you're trying to answer (reference post 1059). Paraffin is not a natural wax, I was referring to substituting castor wax for beeswax.

Looks like nobody's interested in making castor soap or even has an opinion on it... alrighty then.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Castor wax isn't a wax, it's hydrogenated castor oil. No real advantage except it has an "artificially increased" viscosity at room temperature. I have no interest in saponifying soaps because the risk of unreacted residuals affecting pH is so great. I've been throught the stearic acid and rusty barrel/sizer/corroded case necks/gas checks thing to be a little leery of bad lube chemistry.

BTW, a lot of vegetable stearic acid is derived from castor bean oil, but how it's isolated and refined I don't know.

Gear

[Bodine]

I was referring to in the barrell that is the black sooty junk left behind that builds up in the barrel MJ...
Somewhere in the notes I have there is a mention of castor wax, but with a 103 temp today from the wonderful flu bug my grandkids gave me the ol brain aint working so well..

Gear- Cetyl Esters NF is also called Synthetic Spermacetti was it is the thing that I saw you mention about that you couldn't figure out in one of the earlier posts. It is hard but when pressure is applied the viscosity changes, makes it thinner more pliable.

[Bodine]

I Googled "Cetyl Esters NF" and came up with this supplier:

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/cetyl-esters-nf.html

Cetyl Esters NF
CAS No. 977067-67-6
Cetyl Esters NF is a wax mixture consisting primarily of esters of saturated fatty alcohols and saturated fatty acids. It can be used in emulsions and anhydrous products to impart a lubricous feel and soft gloss to these formulations. It can also increase viscosity and improve stability.

Recommended Use Rate: 2 - 7%
Appearance: White flakes
Required HLB: 10

INCI: Cetyl Esters

Yep that is where I get it...

[geargnasher]

Dang, Jeff, you better get that down, you're cooking your brain!

Sounds like a good companion to beeswax and carnauba.

What are your thoughts about how a lube really functions? We've been trying to establish the desirable properties in a rifle lube for some time and it's tough to isolate them. I've shot lubes that go instantly liquid under pressure, lubes that don't melt at all, lubes that gradually go from firm to liquid with a lot of heat input, and lubes of all sorts of viscosities or blends of multi-viscosity components, and it's hard to pinpoint what works "best". If you use something like carnauba wax and cetyl ester NF the lube is going to go liquid or at least soft very quickly when pressurized, the question is do we want the lube to go liquid, and if we do, do we want that to happen as soon as possible in the firing cycle or only after some barrel friction starts to heat the lube as the boolit gets up to speed in the barrel?

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Castor wax isn't a wax, it's hydrogenated castor oil.

Tomato, tomaaato... it's also called a hydrogenated castor oil but it's still a vegetable wax.

No real advantage except it has an "artificially increased" viscosity at room temperature.

Perhaps that's enough of a difference right there to warrant its consideration; i.e., under pressure and temperature it may become a much better lubricant than beeswax.

I have no interest in saponifying soaps because the risk of unreacted residuals affecting pH is so great.

If little old ladies can make castor soap and like bathing with it, I'm not afraid of it rusting my barrel, especially after scrubbing fouling for the last month or so.

I've been throught the stearic acid and rusty barrel/sizer/corroded case necks/gas checks thing to be a little leery of bad lube chemistry.

There are no two ways about it, Stearic Acid is not soap... yo, chemists, back me up here!

MJ

[Bodine]

There are several things that need to happen with lube. First it must come completely off upon barrel exit, I call it spin off. Second it must leave a microscopic firm in the bore to assist in keeping vaporized lead from adhering to the barrel.
The most critical thing is actually bullet fit, if it completely fills the bore, the chances of the virgin gas passing the bullet on the sides is greatly reduced which limits gas cutting.

That is my opinion, I have shot bullets with out lube just to test the idea and did not get any leading at 1750fps in my savage 308.

I have also been working on shooting Plain Base bullets in my 788 in 308 with just a pvc wad and no lube, I dont have enough data to form a conclusion.

The very interesting thing I did discover is that when I use gas checked bullets I get copper fouling when checked with a bore scope. I cleaned that out and the accuracy returned. Less than .75 MOA for 5 shots. I looked down the bore of a brand new Savage 308 barrel and it looked like circular train tracks. They are machining marks, I asked Savage about and they do not lap the barrels after machining. That is where the caranuba comes in to help fill those machine marks. Occasionally I scrub out the barrel with JB and again accuracy returns.

There is no perfect lube, it varies per gun as we cant control the machining process, and yes if you are goning to shoot lead you are gonna need to clean. I supply cleaning instructions and Ed's Red Formula with each lube order for that reason.

[Bodine]

You are correct MJ, it is not a soap. It is mainly used as a binding agent as it surrounds the other molecules and make it "stick" together. Used a lot in commercial and home candle making to reduce "slumping" and add mottling.

[Marlin Junky]

There are several things that need to happen with lube. First it must come completely off upon barrel exit, I call it spin off. Second it must leave a microscopic firm in the bore to assist in keeping vaporized lead from adhering to the barrel.

Don't ignore friction

The most critical thing is actually bullet fit, if it completely fills the bore, the chances of the virgin gas passing the bullet on the sides is greatly reduced which limits gas cutting.

You're still going to get blow by when the boolit is engraved.

That is my opinion, I have shot bullets with out lube just to test the idea and did not get any leading at 1750fps in my savage 308.

How many rounds in the string, what level of accuracy? I'd also like to know the boolit alloy and gun powder used.

I have also been working on shooting Plain Base bullets in my 788 in 308 with just a pvc wad and no lube, I dont have enough data to form a conclusion.

The very interesting thing I did discover is that when I use gas checked bullets I get copper fouling when checked with a bore scope. I cleaned that out and the accuracy returned. Less than .75 MOA for 5 shots. I looked down the bore of a brand new Savage 308 barrel and it looked like circular train tracks. They are machining marks, I asked Savage about and they do not lap the barrels after machining. That is where the caranuba comes in to help fill those machine marks. Occasionally I scrub out the barrel with JB and again accuracy returns.

There is no perfect lube, it varies per gun as we cant control the machining process, and yes if you are goning to shoot lead you are gonna need to clean. I supply cleaning instructions and Ed's Red Formula with each lube order for that reason.

Granted, but I was hoping to leave a barrel fouled for at least a few months and get 50-100 accurate shots (without flyers) before needing to clean.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

You are correct MJ, it is not a soap. It is mainly used as a binding agent as it surrounds the other molecules and make it "stick" together. Used a lot in commercial and home candle making to reduce "slumping" and add mottling.

It is a saturated fatty acid and therefore, can be used in soap making process.

MJ

P.S. This is killing me, I gotta get some work done... later.

[geargnasher]

MJ, I've explained basic soapmaking several times on this thread. Metal soaps are made by reacting a metal hydroxide with a fatty acid, almost always stearic acid, which is present in beef tallow and castor oil in large percentages. If you have too much stearic acid, there won't be enough hydroxide to react it all, and residuals will have either an acidic or basic nature depending on which way the reaction was NOT stochiometric. You don't want leftover acids or bases in your lube. This is why we're using industrial-grade finished metal salts. Grease made in industry is made from scratch with EXACT quantities of KNOWN components to ensure complete reaction. We don't have the ability at home to get that close, so using finished stearates and testing for corrosion anyway is the safest route.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, I've explained basic soapmaking several times on this thread. Metal soaps are made by reacting a metal hydroxide with a fatty acid, almost always stearic acid, which is present in beef tallow and castor oil in large percentages. If you have too much stearic acid, there won't be enough hydroxide to react it all, and residuals will have either an acidic or basic nature depending on which way the reaction was NOT stochiometric. You don't want leftover acids or bases in your lube. This is why we're using industrial-grade finished metal salts. Grease made in industry is made from scratch with EXACT quantities of KNOWN components to ensure complete reaction. We don't have the ability at home to get that close, so using finished stearates and testing for corrosion anyway is the safest route.

Gear

OK, ask yourself this: Did you ever have any corrosion issues when using Felix Lube made with Ivory... Ivory Soap is very inconsistent with respect to the fatty acids being saponified. My suggestion was to use a known (Castor Oil) and carefully saponify with either NaOH, LiOH or a combination of the two (perhaps 50/50 NaOH/LiOH). It wouldn't be too difficult to test the pH of the result. Perhaps I'll give it a whirl when I get some time. Nuf said. I'll be back in a couple days.

MJ

[Wingnutt]

5. Base grease - this is were the work comes in. Your have to turn the heat all of the way up and stir until the grease blends in, it will take some time which is why I made a stand over my hot plate and pot and use an electric drill with a stirring paddle to stir, low speed.
I have a thermocouple and pid controller to keep the heat around 350 - 400 degrees F and I cook it for a about 1/2 hour at that temp.
You need that heat to combine the chemical chains into a new compound.
I then turn off the heat and continue stirring until around 175 degrees F and pout it into the prepped molds. I then let it sit overnight and remove the lube from the tubes and there ya have it.

Hopefully this should be enough to give you guys a jump forward on your project.

Jeff, do you really know for sure that molecular change has taken place or as Felix stated you are only cooking off ingredients thus leaving a different compound, or rather bullet lube ?..........

[Bodine]

Dan
If something cooked off the total volume would decrease. It is my opinion that yes the molecular strings are modified. It creates a new compound. the ingredients blend together. Just like baking a cake, you mix everything up and bake it to form something new.

[felix]

Yes, the volume will decrease if something smokes. ... felix