"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[geargnasher]

Felix, I studied the viscosity of room-temperature mixed and polymerized castor/baby oil vs. Bullplate, 500 SUS air conditioning ester oil, and this Redline two-stroke ester. The castor/mineral is very similar in viscosity to the thinner oils, a little more thin than Dexron III atf. A lightbulb sort of went on at that point, and I quit messing with gear oils and greases with heavy oil. I think castor may be too thick by itself, I assume that's the reason for the mineral oil addition.

No, I haven't subbed Ester for the mineral oil in Felix lube, but that might be worth a go. I'm not sure why we'd need the castor at all though, the ester oil is doing the same thing only with a much higher VI and no gummy stuff. I'm not sure we "need" the soap either, if not using castor, except to make a light sodium grease out of the lube oil and maybe add some control to how it's dispensed to the bore. Oh, and raise the overall melt point a titch.

Lanolin concerns me too at low temps, but I've never truly isolated it as a problem, it always seemed to be the carnauba and overall higher viscosity of the basic lube in cold weather that caused problems, easily fixed with a little ATF or vaseline and deleting the carnauba. Deleting the carnauba alone wasn't enough for the first couple of shots.

Gear

[felix]

Yeah, I cannot think of any real innovation worth considering. Somehow I still think we need a completely off-the-wall revelation of some magic ingredient, some liquid abrasive that likely would mimic rayon in a form which would augment beeswax in a fruitful manner as discussed throughout the thread (decrease the wax effects). ... felix

[btroj]

Isn't a Felox lube using 2 stroke oil in place of mineral oil/castor oil and skipping the sterate and lanolin just speed green?

I think a speed green using a better quality oil sounds promising. It would be easy to make small modifications to a basic recipe.

[geargnasher]

CarnEsterbee is basically Lotak with ester oil instead of Bullplate.

Gear

[btroj]

How do you think the carnuba content is going to work out? Do you have a gut feeling?

I think the Ester base oil shows more promise but we never know until a few thousand rounds are down the tube, do we.

[runfiverun]

upping the bar on speed green would make a very good lube.
we have been kicking around a more synthetic felix lube for some time now allready.

like felix i really think we are going to have to explore the waxes or go full synthetic.
polymer,nylon,poly sumthin.


allright,allright i might as well say what i got goin on.
i have a few [20] boolits sittin around coated with nu-finish that i'll get around to tryin at some point. [sigh]
if 5 of them from a dirty bbl pan out, i'll try and incorporate some straight nu finish into some soft candle wax. and let the carriers in it dry leaving the polymer behind.
i have been working with this somewhat ever since the smoking j-lube fiasco,
and the foaming jpw cookdown incident.

[geargnasher]

I really have no idea. 30% might work, then again it might prove to have no benefit at all. Jeff's VooDoo lube supposedly has 10% carnauba, IIRC Lotak has 25%, I don't know about any others for sure.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Run, some time back I looked up the dope on Nu-Finish, that clear polymer wire-pulling lube, and the "synthetic wax" in Big White car wax. I can't remember what they all were, but there was a water-soluble thing about them that sort of turned me off. Big White car wax can be had in water-based paste, or solvent-based paste. I was going to get some from Autogeek but something shiny distracted me (I think it was a box full of lab containers from somewhere on the West Coast) and I never ordered it. Check out Autogeek dot com and look at the Big White waxes, I'll bet it's similar to the Nu-Finish and can be had in an oil-based form.

I was trying to get away from beeswax entirely at one point, but it's dang hard to do. You have to watch the polymer stuff because it tends to leave a plastic film on stuff when melted, think "wad fouling" in shotguns. BPI shot buffer does the same thing. Felix mentioned an "abrasive", what about the Cab-O-Sil? 1% of that might have been a key to the success of the E-lubes.

Gear

[Bodine]

I have a prediction for you, MJ: It will be rock-hard when it cools and when you squish it, it will quickly turn back into #2 grease. Lithium is funny that way. I messed around with this quite a bit trying to figure out VooDoo Lube.

Gear

So tell me, did you ever figure it out?

[runfiverun]

jeff we kinda just let it drop it's your formula and we didn't want to step on your toes any.


i am working the polymer in the nu-finish dry.
at first it was another attempt to add another improvement on the 45/45 lube like adding the b-wax and extra mineral spirits was.
but i am trying to work it around as the fortifier/filler to the wax, the wad analogy is pretty spot on as that is how i am taking the full coating.
i also know that shot patterns are affected more by cold dense air,and warm dry air and not by the wad being harder or softer.

the ultimate lube might just turn out to be a boolit coating. [other than paper]

that was why i added the cab-o-sil it was for friction, and the hto as the long chain binder [plus it's lubricating]
i really think lube has to have some drag to it,and not be too wet at either the throat or muzzle.
just soft enough to be flung away not blown off at either end.

[geargnasher]

No, Jeff, I didn't. I wasn't trying to duplicate your concoction as much as figure out why it worked. As far as I know you're the only one using a synthetic PAO-based lithium grease as the major consituent with any success (other than my concentrated Mobil SCH-220/beeswax lube), and that had my curiosity going at the time. The apparent need for fouling shots with VooDoo sort of turned me in a different direction.

Gear

[Bodine]

I have gone through and read this entire thread, beginning to end, about 6 hours worth. You guys have some very interesting ideas and I love the experimentation and innovation.

I have been cooking up lubes for over 40 yrs and I will let you in on a couple of secrets.

No natural hydrocarbons - oil grease - synthetic only!!

No animal based ingredients - ie:lanolin.

No paraffin, microcrystaline waxs - they are made from hydrocarbons.

Things you can do:

More than one stearate - If you look at some of the applications that the stearates are used for you will see that some bear wonderful benefits beyond thickening.

Natural waxes and syntheic waxes - In combination.

High temps to cook this stuff, if it aint smoking, it aint hot enough! And you need to keep it hot for at least 20 minutes.

Lots and lots of stirring and then stir it some more. Perhaps a metal paint mixer or drywall mud mixer on an electric drill on very low speed. You have to make sure all of the ingredients reach a hot enough temp and are stirred enough to get all of the molecules to bind and form new chemical chains.

Yes I use 10% caranuba for Voodoo Red, but I use a bit less in my green pistol lube and I use that lube in my hunting guns as well because the first shot accuracy is better.
Voodoo Red was formulated to be used for competition where you can shoot around 3 fouling shot to get the barrel up to temp and foul the bore as in competition we clean A LOT! Like every 10 shots or so.

It took 146 formulas to get the original formula, which has been changed to remove some of the inert ingredients from the lube: ie: Ivory Snow soap (for the sodium stearate) and replaced it with a regent grade sodium stearate.

I am now up to number 172, I constantly try new things as I discover them. I will say my next go will be with using chewing gum base in the mix if I can get my hands on enough without buying a metric ton of the stuff. Thi is to try and add a bit of elasticity to the lube just to see what happens.

[Bodine]

I appreciate anyone not wanting to step on my toes, but I would also like to see you guys succeed.
I tested every Synthetic lube out there, Amsoil did the worst.

I think you guys are right about the caranuba causing the first shot flyer, that is why I use less of it in the green formula I am working on. So far I have reduced the first shot flyer from 3" at 50 yds to around 1.5" just by reduc9ng the caranuba wax percentage.

A small amount of caranuba will significantly add stiffness to the lube. Don't try Candilla wax either, it is more brittle than caranuba.

[Marlin Junky]

I think you guys are right about the caranuba causing the first shot flyer, that is why I use less of it in the green formula I am working on. So far I have reduced the first shot flyer from 3" at 50 yds to around 1.5" just by reduc9ng the caranuba wax percentage.

I'd appreciate some details regarding that statement. Was the viscosity of the lube drastically decreased? How much did you reduce the Carnauba with respect to the rest of the ingredients? What type of firearm were you using? As far as I'm concerned, a 1.5" first shot flyer (even through a clean, cold barrel) at 50 yards is pretty bad.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

back to the castor wax or the hydrogenated castor oil ian and I first discussed.
castor wax might be a good substitute for carnuba wax.

Why substitute a wax that has been created by hydrogenation for a natural one with the same basic melt temp?

btw 2-5% added carnuba is usually the correct amount. i generally go with 2-3% when adding to a known lube.

Here's what I'd like to know. Have you tested a beewax/POE lube with and without 2-3% carnauba and if so do you have target results on hand? Did the 2-3% carnauba replace the same amount of beeswax and if so, did it raise the melt temp of the lube at all?

I kinda like this idea for a lube ingredient: What 'bout making a soap from castor oil and NaOH (SAP value = .128). To calculate the amount of NaOH needed, multiply the weight in ounces of castor oil by .128. To calculate the weight of NaOH solution, divide the weight of NaOH needed for saponification by 0.3. Subtracting the weight in ounces of NaOH from the weight in ounces of the NaOH solution will provide the weight in ounces of water necessary for the reaction. Calculations should be accurate to the hundredths place; therefore, a good scale is required. Sound like fun? I don't remember off hand what the cook temp is but can look it up if anyone's interested... IIRC, this stuff can be made over a double boiler. After the soap is made, we can melt it in POE, let cool a bit and add beeswax/carnauba. For about 4 times the price, I don't see why someone couldn't substitute LiOH for NaOH (or mix the two!)... they both give up the same number of OH ions.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Jeff, your tips and advice is much appreciated, and thank you for taking the time to wade through this compilation of our founderings in lube technology. It's tough to do this thing without letting on too much about some people who make money on their personal work like you, Veral Smith, Glenn Larsen, and Dan Congliosi. I haven't shared much of anything from my own lab evaluations of several items in question here except for what's been said by the creators of the formulas themselves. If I had a formula I was selling I'd want people who figured out what it was to keep it to themselves, and most of use here I think share that basic sense of respect.

What we're after is an "open source" formula like Felix's lube and the NRA formulas, not a money-making proposition, although personally I wouldn't mind if a site sponsor like Randyrat or White Lable produced a commercial version for those who didn't want to make the stuff themselves.

Interesting what you mentioned about the stearates. Lithium tends to be "thixotropic" when mixed with any sort of wax, meaning it sets up hard when it cools and goes soft when worked, similar to the effect carnauba wax has on any wax-based lube. However, SODIUM stearate doesn't do that at all. Mixing the two stearates makes the thickeners more work-stable. I'm sure you noted my reference to the 1940's US patent that addressed the work-stability issues of greases by combining lithium, sodium, and magnesium in hydroxide form with the base oil and then making grease out of it by reacting stearic acid with it, making what I've been calling a "tri-stearate" grease. If working consistency is important (is it?) then that's the way to go.

Ian

[Bodine]

I'd appreciate some details regarding that statement. Was the viscosity of the lube drastically decreased? How much did you reduce the Carnauba with respect to the rest of the ingredients? What type of firearm were you using? As far as I'm concerned, a 1.5" first shot flyer (even through a clean, cold barrel) at 50 yards is pretty bad.

MJ

I cut the caranuba down to 2% and it softened so I added a bit Bees wax to firm it back, about another 1.5%

[Bodine]

Why substitute a wax that has been created by hydrogenation for a natural one with the same basic melt temp?



Here's what I'd like to know. Have you tested a beewax/POE lube with and without 2-3% carnauba and if so do you have target results on hand? Did the 2-3% carnauba replace the same amount of beeswax and if so, did it raise the melt temp of the lube at all?

I kinda like this idea for a lube ingredient: What 'bout making a soap from castor oil and NaOH (SAP value = .128). To calculate the amount of NaOH needed, multiply the weight in ounces of castor oil by .128. To calculate the weight of NaOH solution, divide the weight of NaOH needed for saponification by 0.3. Subtracting the weight in ounces of NaOH from the weight in ounces of the NaOH solution will provide the weight in ounces of water necessary for the reaction. Calculations should be accurate to the hundredths place; therefore, a good scale is required. Sound like fun? I don't remember off hand what the cook temp is but can look it up if anyone's interested... IIRC, this stuff can be made over a double boiler. After the soap is made, we can melt it in POE, let cool a bit and add beeswax/carnauba. For about 4 times the price, I don't see why someone couldn't substitute LiOH for NaOH (or mix the two!)... they both give up the same number of OH ions.

MJ

It has to do with the residue left behind from the burn of the paraffin, partial burned hydrocarbons act much like Alox.

I did a test where you take the finished lube put it on newspaper in a black box in very high heat and humidity such as we have had here this year, there was no bleeding of the base grease and the temp inside the box was around 150 degrees F, Voodoo red got a little softer, the green was a lot softer.

[Bodine]

Jeff, your tips and advice is much appreciated, and thank you for taking the time to wade through this compilation of our founderings in lube technology. It's tough to do this thing without letting on too much about some people who make money on their personal work like you, Veral Smith, Glenn Larsen, and Dan Congliosi. I haven't shared much of anything from my own lab evaluations of several items in question here except for what's been said by the creators of the formulas themselves. If I had a formula I was selling I'd want people who figured out what it was to keep it to themselves, and most of use here I think share that basic sense of respect.

What we're after is an "open source" formula like Felix's lube and the NRA formulas, not a money-making proposition, although personally I wouldn't mind if a site sponsor like Randyrat or White Lable produced a commercial version for those who didn't want to make the stuff themselves.

Interesting what you mentioned about the stearates. Lithium tends to be "thixotropic" when mixed with any sort of wax, meaning it sets up hard when it cools and goes soft when worked, similar to the effect carnauba wax has on any wax-based lube. However, SODIUM stearate doesn't do that at all. Mixing the two stearates makes the thickeners more work-stable. I'm sure you noted my reference to the 1940's US patent that addressed the work-stability issues of greases by combining lithium, sodium, and magnesium in hydroxide form with the base oil and then making grease out of it by reacting stearic acid with it, making what I've been calling a "tri-stearate" grease. If working consistency is important (is it?) then that's the way to go.

Ian

There is a fellow yhat used to be on the CBA named Mistro Jerry. I gave him a basic synthetic formula, I will check my notes and would be happy to dive it to you guys. I dont make the lube to make money, I make to help out the void left when Tom Gray quit making Gray#24 and being a cheap and inquisitive fellow I wanted to understand why and how of bullet lube works and how to make it. I can remember as a young boy cooking up the old alox, beeswax with a splash of stp to pan lube 38 wadcutters cause if you wanted to shoot you had cast lube and load. I still have the Lyman 45 and Lachmiller sizers we had back in the 60's.

Back to the lube, the one I gave him was asingle stearate lube, but I see you guys are headed in the right direction with multiple stearate lube.

[popper]

No natural hydrocarbons - oil grease - synthetic only!!

Examples please? Don't really understand what you are getting at. Just no hydrocarbons due to the ash?