"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[bruce381]

LOL for me its you guys have a very good imaganation.

In that if a 4 ingredient formula does not work then chuck that and make a whole new 7 ingredient formula or 6 or 5. When that does not work lets add some of this or that cause it sound good.

This thread is great do not get me wrong but the haphazard and non double or tripple reviewed nature as well as no real spelled out peramiters for the lube (other than if has to shoot hot and cold) to me means while this is fun it will never end.

In my work for various lube I can have 2-10 problems area or isues that the lube must overcome have to be worked out same as this boolit lube.

I will break it down into managable bits such as first get the vis correct or start with the EP load carrying or low temp etc. Just one area say low temp when that is soved move on.

Then as 1 action item is met I move on till the formula on paper looks good and meets
all my imposed criteria with lab testing data on NOT the whole but on the "bits" of action items that must be met.

Then the field testing is started to prove or disporve the formula. This takes months to years and as information comes back from the field testing modification are made to dial it in.

Unfortunatelt boolit llube has not many applicable ASTM lubes tests that apply.
As such you have to shoot stuff but how do you know that the falure you have was due to visocity or lube value or melting point etc.

Seems like way to many varibles here.

But I love this stuff so continue on and I will assist any way I can

Not complaining just random thoughts

bruce

[geargnasher]

Bruce, we sure appreciate all you've done, you've helped us out a whole bunch with info and hard-to-get components. I've tested things that I'm quite certain have never been mixed together before, much less shot in a rifle, and it's answered a bunch of questions in my mind as to what can and can't work.

The huge challenge here as I see it isn't controlling variables as much as it is isolating, identifying, and quantifying unknowns. As an analog for making engine oil, it would be like starting out knowing about what a typical 19th-century steam-engine mechanic would about machinery and lubrication, being handed a 6.4L Navistar diesel and told to figure out how to lubricate it while meeting 2011 diesel emmision standards and maintain 7500-mile service intervals. Along the way he's going to discover a lot about seal requirements, soot, HEUI injector function, turbocharger varnish, and exhaust zinc and sulfur content, all things he'd never seen, heard of, or dealt with before. The task is to pick it apart, discover how it works, then figure out what sort of stuff is available or needs to be invented to meet the demands, devise a lot of individual tests to determine the properties the oil must have to make the parts live, and try to put it all together in liquid form so it all works. Then he can start blowing engines up trying to test it.

I feel a little like the staff of fledgling NASA must have when President Kennedy told America we were going to put a man on the moon. The question was "can we DO this??" Nobody knew for sure, but for certain they knew that it would require an understanding, technology and materials that hadn't been invented yet or thought of before to meet challenges that hadn't been discovered yet before it could be done. I'm not sure the stuff exists for perfect boolit lube, but I think modern science has provided us with enough to at least learn what we need.

This all started with a bunch of theorizing on the part of a few of us, and trying to figure out just what boolit lube DOES. Truthfully, not many people know, although some know what works and what doesn't. If we knew what we needed, we could just detail a set of parameters and you could throw some stuff together in a couple hours for us to test, mostly with stuff you probably have in the lab. Felix has been convinced for decades that an ideal lube could be scratch-built from molecules in a lab, IF we knew what we were trying to make in the first place. Perhaps he does, but I sure don't.

I've spent most of my time trying to answer some of the big unknowns. Does a lube need to melt? If so, does the specific heat of the lube or the gross VI of the finished lube affect performance? If it does, will adding two more inches to the barrel render it ineffective? What about different ambient temperature? Does lube need to be waxy or oily? How thick can we make grease and still make it work as boolit lube? What happens to the various metal soaps when fired in a gunbarrel? Does lube work like grease, like oil, or like a dry, sliding lube? Does lube need to burn off, or leave a film? How do you maintain a consistent oil film in a gunbarrel? Does lube blow ahead of the boolit, or make a floating, fluid gasket around the boolit? If lube functions by fluid film, what viscosity does it need to be, and what mechanism do we use to dispense it? How well do various waxes operate as film lubricants when melted? If lube functions by making a sealing gasket, will it be made less temperature-sensitive by the addition of a robust, solid filler? I could keep going on and on with the things we've covered and the questions we've asked that really need to be answered before we know what to do when we put pen to paper. Maybe I should compile a brief summary for discussion. Add to all this the fact that most of is didn't know what metal soaps were three months ago, or any details of synthetic lubricants.

It gets to the point pretty quickly where you just take a basic premise, try to improve it how you can, throw some stuff together that will make it stick to a boolit and go see how it shoots. I don't think we've passed over any really promising lube concepts YET, we know the basic idea of a grease/wax lube works, and also that a wax/oil lube works, so that's something. I think I've proven that solids aren't practical or effective, including moly, graphite, bentonite, metamucil, paper fiber, and a whole slew of other things. Didn't test the wood flour yet but I probably won't at this point. We know that the weak link in soap lubes is temperature, at least with non-synthetic oils. I still think the key to making an all-temp grease/wax lube is getting the right grease, one with a high VI synthetic base oil of the right viscosity (still don't know what viscosity, but something between ISO 40 and 250 seems to work). I have a better idea now of what gellants to use. I intend to pursue the lithi-bee a bunch more even if the EsterBee works out because I want the benefit of the higher flow point of the grease-based lubes. But to do that I need to figure out how the gellant affects the properties of the oil, and to know that, I have to figure out just exactly what the oil really does or needs to do and formulate a grease that will let it "wet" or flow (or not, as the case may be) so it can do whatever job it does in the barrel, and then test it to see if it does it at all the temps we require.

Like I said, it's a monster. And we're just getting started. Best thing we can do is keep stabbing the beast and eventually things will turn up, like Eutectic's EsterBee or my PAO/lithi-bee with high gellant concentrations, or the E-lubes. We may never know how boolit lube works, but if you have enough monkeys randomly pounding on typewriters, one of them will eventually write Hamlet!

Gear

[btroj]

What he said

[popper]

Anyone have any bbl temperature data after say 4, 10, 20 shots? Curious as to temp lube needs to withstand or really what happens to lube between shots. 20 shot slow fire should get a reasonable max bbl temp but a curve from cold(?) to hot would be interesting also.

staff of fledgling NASA

How about being the first to sign up to fly? Fame and fortune, if you survive. Or the Doc who started rocket sled testing!

[btroj]

I don't know that anyone has really discussed how barrel temp during a string changes the nature of the lube film.

We know a cold barrel can cause issues with some lubes. Matters not if barrel is clean or fouled.

I have a feeling that shooting a 20 round string in 10 minutes or less gives a good feel for how the lube handles a hot barrel. If the group tends to fall apart after 10 shots or so we can be pretty sure that lube purging or something bad is happening. I don't know that shooting 20 rounds in 5 invites would make that big of a difference.

I do have a feeling that lubes that don't do well in long strings from the barrel are going to show up easily this summer. this heat is going to show how well a lube handles heat.

[popper]

Only portable thermometer I have is AC and only goes to 160F. I'm guessing a 10-20 shot string will stabilized the temp so a single shot temp can be estimated. Then lube melt and burn temps can be evaluated for breakdown, cindering, etc.

[btroj]

Problem is that we don't know what exactly is left in the barrel. Is it a uniform film of all the lube components? Is it largely made of carriers? The lube oils? Does it vary?

This is aso being taken into account by shooting 20 or so shots one day, leafing the bore as is. Then repeating a day or more later. This gives time for the lube film to dry out, melt, or whatever.

I do know that in 22 rimfires the lube does dry out in the bore and if not cleaned it can lead to leading or poor accuracy with later shots. Not sure if that is relevant to what we use but it is a known issue. I always knew that subscription to PS would pay off!

[Marlin Junky]

My testing amounts to shooting a 20 round string in 30 minutes or less. If my eyes were younger, I could do it faster... but that's plenty fast for me. On occasion, when I start from a clean barrel, (usually when hard fouling was left behind from a previous test or I change lubes altogether) I will shoot two foulers at a separate target.

Gear asked, "...what have we learned". I believe we've learned that there is a distinct possibility oils exists that are more suitable (and readily available) than mineral oil (castor oil may still be in the race). I also think we have learned that quality carnauba flakes blended with beeswax allow us to reduce the overall wax content of boolit lube while raising the melt temp of the wax base somewhat. I also believe that synthetics (opposed to petroleum products) are more appropriate for our project. After all, POE's are the only lubricants qualified for use in jet engine applications.

Personally, I'll have a better feeling for the Ultimate Boolit Lube in about a year. If I was privy to a 100 yard climate controlled firing range and the luxury of a much larger income with unlimited free time, my quest would more than likely progress a bit faster. Sadly, regretfully, I have other commitments.

MJ

[popper]

My inquiry is for data. My thinking is once we determine the bore temp on a shot, many lubes might get tossed out without even shooting. Like teflon that fails at low temp or moly that crusts when burned, paraffin fails at high pressure, etc. We can calc the pressure applied to a lube, but so far have no data on temp. This data may be helpful in determining 'wetting' of a lube and desired Vi.

[btroj]

Gear has done a bit of this. He is looking at the melt temp of the lubes he is currently making.

I agree entirely MJ. We will know a lot more in a year. We need to get the base of knowledge down this summer and fall then do some good testing this winter when it cools down. Until we have cold weather data it is all a **** shoot.

I do agree that the current testing using a POE with beeswax and carnuba is looking promising.

if Run would stop fishing we might know more.

[geargnasher]

Popper, I know you're trying to quantify one of the factors with lube, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Moly doesn't burn when used in cast boolit lube, and paraffin fails due to heat, not necessarily pressure. Unless a lube is too "slick", or has very low melt point (like 120 F or so) it won't have hot barrel problems. This afternoon I went back to the range and did some hot-weather, hot barrel testing of the CarnEsterBee lube to see how it would hold up. It's a good example so I'll share it. I fired a 40 round continous string and the groups held together from beginning to end. The first three made a tight cluster and the rest grouped around it, so something seems to be changing with the mechanics of the gun as the barrel heats, but it doesn't fall apart completly even at 101F ambient, in the hot sun, with hot ammo, when the barrel was so hot it would sizzle spit. Other lubes can go to pieces and start flinging shots all over the target, but that's an easy thing to identify and fix. Most of the formulas Run and I have come up with don't do that because we have a pretty good idea of what to avoid, like paraffin and using too much oil or vaseline. The Bullplate and Microwax 180 lube shot literal patterns on the target, and they got bigger the hotter the barrel, so that's an example of what DIDN'T work due to heat.

Gear

[btroj]

That's enough for me.

Hey Gear, if you want to test in the cold why don't you come up this winter if we Get below zero for a few days. I will give you directions and the combo for the gate at the range. I will be home where it is warm.

[runfiverun]

i'm still watching the carnuba wax/ester issue.
i have a gut feeling about it's winter performance.

sadly i haven't fired a shot from any type of gun since i got home from the nevada cast shoot.
i did cast some sinkers and some rcbs 150 fn's though, and i have been to the range a few times but haven't fired a round. [shrugging sheepishly]
the temp here really hasn't broken 90 so i know how things will work.
thankfully the temps have been lowish [normal] as the 2 story house needs lot's of fixin and new paint.

[runfiverun]

i remember an article in shooting times done years back where the author used a thermometer and moniterd his bbl temps [jamison i think]
he monitored cool down times also, it's where i got the take the bolt out of the rifle and stand it up to cool it down faster thing [chimney effect]


p.s. that guy up there has a pretty cool sig line

[popper]

OK, found some prelim army data m1a1 '75. 40 & 60 F ambient, 10 rounds/min is 600 F. Temp stabilizes at 800f @ 50 /min. The stabilized temp is close to BORE temp. And it don't cool fast, 50/min for mil std bbl.(pencil?). We've been discussing 400-500 F flash point lubes?

[geargnasher]

OK, found some prelim army data m1a1 '75. 40 & 60 F ambient, 10 rounds/min is 600 F. Temp stabilizes at 800f @ 50 /min. The stabilized temp is close to BORE temp. And it don't cool fast, 50/min for mil std bbl.(pencil?). We've been discussing 400-500 F flash point lubes?

Yup. They work, too. You're comparing apples to oranges. I doubt my bolt gun's barrel gets over 400 F at one every minute or two for 20-40 rounds. You see why I was concerned about boolit lube melting in the case neck before the round was even fired. Once I figured out that if the barrel was hot enough to burn me when I touched it, and it was way hotter on the INSIDE than the liquid point of Felix lube, and it STILL shoots straight, I quit worrying about it too much. Just think how hot the powder can get if you chamber a round in a hot gun and let it sit there two or three minutes. The flash point of smokeless powder is pretty low, but it doesn't cook off either, even in full-autos, the barrel melts first.

Gear

[runfiverun]

you know the temp thing could answer one of the questions about lube...
if it truly lubes it would keep the friction down and in turn the temps would be lower.
someone would have to measure temps [an infra red from harbor freight would be close enough]
after firing say 10 rounds each with lubed boolits, 10 more but with "wet lubed" boolits, and 10 not lubed boolits.
a temp increase/decrease would show up right off.

i'd say powders too but i know some powders run cooler [but often dirtier] than others.
[i use 2400 and rifle primers for a reason]

[geargnasher]

I did the heat gun thing a few years ago, I can tell you you're right about powders making a HUGE difference in barrel temp. I wonder if lube affects the barrel temp further toward the muzzle, though.

Shooting paper patched boolits shows a big difference in patch lube, too. I shot some dry patches once in my '06 and ten of them smoked the barrel pretty good. Even a light coat of JPW on the patches kept the barrel cooler.

Here's another thing to think about: What's the melt point of Acra-Glas? I think it's pretty low, certainly below 600F. Ever know anyone to melt the bedding out of their rifle by shooting it too fast? Even with J-words? Me neither. Excess barrel heat is much ado about nothing.

Gear

[btroj]

How many people shoot their 308 at 10 rounds per minute? Other than an M1A being used for highpower competition I doubt it is very many.

We also are using smaller powder charges and different powders which should significantly reduce barrel heating.

I can fire 10 rounds thru my 06 with ct and the barrel is decidedly warm but I can still touch it. 5 rounds of full, jacketed rounds and it isn't something I want to hold onto. 10 makes it way hot.

I also look at the amount of rapid fire shooting some handguners do. They may get a barrel very, very warm and it doesn't seem to be a big issue. They also often use commercial cast with lousy lubes, many of which sem to contain things like paraffin which really wouldn't handle heat well.

Just doesn't seem like the evidence is there to show barrel temp is a real factor.

[popper]

Army data indicates the BORE temp is from flame heating, not friction heating ( yes, some friction heating is present). Short stick powder was almost twice as hot as ball powder. You know that. Now J vs cast - friction heating is minimal so no difference in temp of CB vs J bbl. I would like to confirm this and will research further. As for paraffin, spread it between 2 steel surface plates. 1 fixed, the other moveable. Add weight to the moveable one and measure the force to move it. increase the weight to ~ 200# and measure force to move it. At some weight it won't move, no longer a lube, more like a fine flour. You just measured COF and most lubes have this limit. Paraffin has a low burn temp so when it burns in the bl, where does the carbon residue go? Some out the end and some left in the bbl. From data I have found (army again), it can't take the pressure of CB in rifle. I know there are different qualities of paraffin and possibly mixing with oils changes it's properties, not a chemist and don't know that answer. Maybe BruceB can help. To my understanding, the wax primarily holds the oil (lube) in its pores. My testing is indicating that a 'carrier' reduces the amount of oil blown back over the case, hence more lube in the bore. It of course makes lubing easier. Loaded up ~25 with 2 stroke oil, it's colored so maybe I can see how much 'leaks' out due to capillary action or heat. It's estered synthetic vegetable oil. It's not how smart we are but what we do with what we do (or don't) know. Gear - you ever test those vehicle anti-lock brakes? Forced to on 3 diff vehicles. RR locks up every time. Duh, it's the longest line, friction slows the release of pressure to the caliper piston. Amazing details.