"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[btroj]

I agree about needing todo a full work up with a lube change. Problem is time.

Gear, you may need to look Into a leave of some sort from work!

I think a lube needs to show signs thatit is capable of decent accuracy, no leading, and leaving good barrel condition for future groups.

Once a few decent looking recipes are found it is going to take many, many months of testing to see what they are really capable of doing. One load in one fun won't tell us all we need.

I figure that if we get some good ideas this summer we can get a feel for cold weather properties his coming winter. Next spring we can start to finalize the formulas.

[Marlin Junky]

I bring all this up because it seems that you guys might inadvertently reject The One True Lube because it didn't perform when using an old load where the only thing that has changed is the lube. To do this right, you're going to have to do a full load workup, starting at pop loads and going on up to leading bores or puckering primers.

I'm glad you brought this up because I decided to try my really slick stuff with a boolit having much more bearing surface than RCBS 30-165-SIL; e.g., the Ranch Dog 311-170.

...then I changed to another bull and shot the other seven for another 1.5" group

Sorry Gear, you gotta do better than that. Was that from your '06? I put six into 11/16" (measured center to center) granted it took a while to condition the barrel. We'll see what happens next week from a "cool" seasoned barrel. Too bad I ran out of ammo yesterday because it would have been interesting to see where rounds #23-27 would have landed.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

...So far I haven't tested one that drops velocity yet from being too slick, but this ester lube may well be doing that.
Gear

I did yesterday and posted the chronograph results with RCBS 30-165-SIL. Granted this boolit has little bearing surface; nevertheless, it produces higher velocity with the drier, more viscous BAC than it did with my very oily lube.

MJ

[geargnasher]

MJ, bring it up to around 2000-2100 fps with a 185-grain boolit and lets see how many half-inch groups YOU shoot

Gear

[AnthonyB]

MJ, PM on the way.
Tony

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, bring it up to around 2000-2100 fps with a 185-grain boolit and lets see how many half-inch groups YOU shoot

Gear

Not with that 30-165-SIL but better fitting boolit mold on the way... let's kick it up a notch! Perhaps I'll order a jug of Re7 too...

Uh oh, I think I'm in trouble.

MJ

P.S. I gotta tell you something about RCBS 30-165-SIL... at least in my '06. It's never shot as well as Lee C309-170-F and the only reason I shot that boolit yesterday was because of an absence of 309-170's in stock. Actually, even Lee C309-160-R has typically shot better than RCBS 30-165-SIL in the 1800-1900 fps range.

[geargnasher]

Better order a jug of H4350, that's what I went back to using, since the "benchmark" hunting load for this rifle uses Felix lube and H4350 for 2025 fps, Federal LR primers, Hornady checks, and water-quenched 50/50 alloy. It shoots round, 1.5", 10-shot clusters at 100yards in any weather and any barrel condition provided I use the correctly "tweaked" version of the lube. And the Lee boolit I'm using doesn't fit the gun for beans. That's ok, though, I also did a bit of shooting yesterday with some boolits from a new Accurate mould I had made to fit this gun, I started off with Unique and Felix lube and I can't tell how well it shoots because it makes a 35-caliber hole at my 50-yard range here at home. If I work it up more as the alloy cures I may substitute it for the Lee boolit and see just how far I can push it.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the wax-free lube I left in the barrel of this rifle from the last time I shot it a few weeks ago was a FAIL. Yesterday I cleaned the gun before shooting the new boolit since I didn't like the buildup the lube left behind, and there was a tight spot for the first couple inches of the barrel ahead of the throat. I thought it was lead fouling but the patch came out bright reddish brown. A little 4-ought steel wool and Ed's Red polished it out, but that stuff rusted the bore for sure, even worse and faster than Felix lube with stearic acid did. Glad I ditched that lube.

Gear

[btroj]

Was that the synthetic grease and stearate mix? Interesting. Even without the rust a buildup I the throat isn't conducive to accuracy.

This does show why it is going to take time to really know what a lube can do and how it behaves long term.

How would you rate the results form the latest test? Not knowing what ypur rifle normally does I can't say just from the targets. The fact it sot the first 3 close then opened up would make me wonder how well it is doing.

[Marlin Junky]

Better order a jug of H4350, that's what I went back to using, since the "benchmark" hunting load for this rifle uses Felix lube and H4350 for 2025 fps, Federal LR primers, Hornady checks, and water-quenched 50/50 alloy.

I can get behind the 50/50 water quenched alloy part but your other requirements are a bit different than mine. I'm seeking varmint-like accuracy out to 200 yards with 30 grains* or less powder in my '06 while using boolits less than 180-185 grains. Also, anything over 2000 fps is just additional gravy on the turkey, so to speak. If I want to go faster and/or heavier with my '06, I'll wrap 'em in paper or buy 'em from... wait for it... Hornady.

Glad I ditched that lube.
Gear

Which lube was that? Please reference a link to the description.

Thanks,
MJ

[geargnasher]

At least as good as it ever has with this boolit. Few lubes I've tested have come as close as Felix lube does in group size, this is only the third lube to match it and I've never shot one before in this gun/load combo that would make the first three so close repeatably.

You can't tell a lot from two, ten-shot groups, but there was NO smoke from the muzzle and no hint of any lube star. The bore was dry. I'm thinking the two-stroke oil might be a bit thin for this velocity, or maybe I need to use more of it.

Gear

[geargnasher]

The bad was the lube I shot last, the wax-free lube as I called it. It's the Centaur/Ivory mix.

Gear

[popper]

Bigslug - I agree on your assessment of the video. You can also see the shock wave, a bright vertical flash. Some of the pre gas may be blow by, we'll never know for sure. Most of it is fog created as the air from the bbl is compressed and ejected. Also interesting to see how long the propellent gases last after the bullet leaves the bbl. That is an interesting video. Even the pressure difference between jacket and cast slugs changes the needed load. I think the testers have to maintain a few constants in the test, load is the easiest.

[Marlin Junky]

I'm thinking the two-stroke oil might be a bit thin for this velocity, or maybe I need to use more of it.

Gear

Thicken two separate samples of the Redline with (1) NaStearate and (2) LiStearate before adding the waxes (bee's and palm tree's [carnauba]) to make two separate batches of lube. I would use no more than a pinch of Stearates per liquid oz. of POE and let it simmer at approx. 275F while stirring for about 1/2 hour before adding the waxes... hmmm sounds like Felix Lube with high tech oil and no lanolin, doesn't it? I'd make it myself but I've got too much on my plate right now and won't be able to shoot something like this for at least couple weeks... at the peak of the hot season here!

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

The bad was the lube I shot last, the wax-free lube as I called it. It's the Centaur/Ivory mix.

Gear

Is it possible the Ivory contained too much water?

MJ

[btroj]

Sounds like a modified Felix to me.

I wonder if binding the oil up into a grease will change ow well it "wets" the bore. It may also make big changes in the shot to shot condition of the bore.

If nothing else I think a good ester based 2 stroke oil is looki to be a good lube additive.

[geargnasher]

I wonder too about how the "wetting" ability is affected by a gellant, after all, the whole point of the metal soaps is to bind the oil like a sponge and dispense it where needed in a controlled manner.

I didn't check the small sample of sodium stearate I had for melt point, but I know that the lithium soaps won't gell at 275, it takes around 460F before they go in, which is above the poof point of the Redline.

As far as the rust goes, it isn't possible that the Ivory contained any water when I made it. It was melted to over 500 F and kept there for about ten minutes. I think the deposits absorbed moisture, or perhaps there was a pH malfunction in the residue. Remember, Ivory makes some nasty junk when it's actually burned.

I may mess with making grease later, or perhaps the Dow Molykote 555 stuff (can be had in #3 grease for about 50 bucks a kilogram) since I'd like to have a pre-made grease for ease of obtainability and use in a final formula, but right now I'm just going to forge ahead with the wax/oil thing and see how that goes. What I'm essentially doing here is testing the samce concept that Eutectic came up with minus the Alox, it's simply a "better" Speed Green.

There's also the HTO and other additives that need to be explored as well as other grades of POE oils before the basic CarnEsterBee lube is proved out. But I'm pumped about it, I think POE oil or grease and beeswax are going to be two key ingredients that will get us where we're trying to go.

Gear

[btroj]

I agree, Eutectic threw a wrench in the works, didn't he?
I am glad he did, he showed that a different direction had some promise.

I think a modified SpeedGreen has some real merit.

I secretly hope the end formula contain some Alox, just to drive Gear nuts!

[geargnasher]

Yeah, screw you and your Alox, buddy!

Whatever works works, even if I have to eat my hat. I had taken a good, long look at polyol esters back when I was exploring which way to go with the PAO, POE, and PAG oils. I chose the PAG route (the Zombie series based on several PAGs Bruce sent me and the BG PAG with the flourescent tracer dye) because PAGs have inherently low coefficients of friction compared to the others and also tend to have very high viscosity indexes (indeces?). The problem came about with trying to get them to blend with anything else, and when I finally figured out how to accomplish that, I discovered they tend to evaporate out of wax. PAG is also inherently hygroscopic, even if it's made with "double end-capped" molecules. Might still work, but the PAGs need to be in a lithium based grease to work well, and I'm still not sure they offer any advantages over the POEs. POEs were also hard to get, and fairly limited to air conditioning lubricants (not treated with anti-oxidants) and aircraft or hydraulic fluid applications, so I didn't pursue it until MJ and Eutectic figured out the whole Redline and Motul thing. It all sort of came together for me when I started thinking about the chemical composition of beeswax and carnauba (with some prodding from MJ there, too) and the "solvent action" of polyol esters on these waxes. I wasn't messing too much with Speed Green because my past tests haven't been good with it in really hot weather, and it doesn't store in the heat well at all.

I'm going to lube up a bunch more for the next test batch using the same CarnEsterBee stuff. It might also happen that I need to get some Alox 350 from Glenn, since it would add a very desireable "flex" quality as well as a ton of EP properites to the lube. I think the ester oil just might keep the mineral sludge from becoming a problem.

Gear

[btroj]

If the POE can reduce the tendency of Alox to leave a sludge in the bore then it may make all the difference in the world.
What happens if we add a bit of POE to some simple 50/50 Alox lube? Wonder if POE can overcome that hi an Alox concentration.

I need to look into getting some POE. It isn't real expensive when you look at how much lube can be made from it. If nothing else I can use it in my mower!

Like you said, I don't care what the ultimate ingredients are if we can get something that works. I prefer easy to get and inexpensive but those are relative too.

[geargnasher]

OMG. 1,000 posts. It's officially a monster. Have we learned anything yet, fellas?


Gear