ADvertise hereLee PrecisionTitan ReloadingGraf & Sons
RotoMetals2StainLess Steel MediaInline Fabrication

Page 5 of 153 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141555105 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 3055

Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    we want hydrocarbon.
    so just the soaps are available. [calcium or lithium?]
    that could make things much easier as then we could talk specifics.
    like so and so's number2 and 15% more lith soap plus x amount of carnuba.

    i'm gonna let it sit for a couple of day's before passing judgement.
    the tack increased but the string decreased in just 2 hrs.
    so we'll see.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  2. #82
    Anti-Socialist Texan


    geargnasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,660
    Well Bruce, it may be time for that. What we need here is a real, bona-fide lube engineer, and now that the synth greases look like the direction to go, we could sure use your help.

    I might have learned enough now to at least understand some of the basics of grease construction, but not enough to tell what might be best for boolit lube.

    Let's try to figure out what we need, then how best to make it. Boolit lube has some unique needs as far as greases go, the speed rating is astronomical but it only has to hold up for a couple of feet and a few microseconds. The rest of the time it needs to be really good at staying put and not bleeding, even at temps of 200 degrees (think cartridge sitting in a hot chamber after a long, rapid-fire string). Even regular lithium auto grease will withstand the pressures involved with shooting cast boolits provided it's captured in a carrier like beeswax.

    Could you give is a layman's description of the common thickeners and how they might stack up against the job of being in a boolit lube? I know there's the metal soaps (calcium, lithium, aluminum, etc.), then there's bentone, Teflon, UHMWPE, what have I missed? Inert gelling agents like bentone and the polymer stuff are attractive because they are virtually temperature impervious and it seems like the formulation would be simpler.

    I think a grade 5 synthetic base oil would be good for a lubricant, but I don't know what else is out there. Silicones might work too.

    If we can't get a hard grease that will melt easily, it can always be pressed into hollow sticks with PVC pipe and all-thread rod.

    So back to a thick, synthetic grease, that's all we really need. The question is does it already exist, or do we have to make it from scratch?

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  3. #83
    Anti-Socialist Texan


    geargnasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,660
    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    we want hydrocarbon.
    so just the soaps are available. [calcium or lithium?]
    that could make things much easier as then we could talk specifics.
    like so and so's number2 and 15% more lith soap plus x amount of carnuba.

    i'm gonna let it sit for a couple of day's before passing judgement.
    the tack increased but the string decreased in just 2 hrs.
    so we'll see.
    I'm hoping all the common gelling agents are available by themselves, I'll bet they arrive at the grease factories in component form, although some compounding might have to be done on site, I get that not all greases are a "just mix it together" process.

    Being able to get a common #2 grease and add more gelling agent to adjust the thickness instead of using waxes to "thicken" it!! and then deal with the tack issues if necessary would be a really good way to start experimenting.

    What should we start with? How about Mobil 1 tube grease? Add some more thickener and give it a go?

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  4. #84
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    polymers show promise because they don't shrink or expand.
    i don't know about burning but our time, like you say, is very short.
    we know it has to be thin enough to fling off the boolit [or stay, all of it]

    we gotta start somewhere.

    i'd like to know more about adding soaps to say a #1 or #2 and what is involved.
    then a poly,or synth,or moly could be modified to the correct visc with a [lith or calcium] soap and other things could first be added because of the lower melt point.

    i am positive that a number 4 will flow through a lube sizer as is, and a number 5 should with some heat.
    the pressure will make it flow more than most people think.
    the melt point is something else though.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  5. #85
    Anti-Socialist Texan


    geargnasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,660
    Here's the dope on Mobil 1 grease, looks like a simple lithium complex thickener and synthetic base oil, NLGI #2, -40 to 302F and it's widely available. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...ic_Grease.aspx

    It looks like the base oil does thin considerably at 100C, but that's above the operating range I think we can expect from boolit lubes, and isn't NEARLY as bad as the viscosity changes I've seen listed for the conventional base oils in other greases at the same temperature differential.

    So where to get some lithium complex soap?

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  6. #86
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    does a synthetic #2 have a higher melt point than #2 standard ?
    i know that a melt temp of 350 is workable, one of 550 doable too, but things get difficult and losing the bonds gets perilous at that temp.
    a melt point and auto ignition could be like 10* apart when you get that high.
    tack is going to be unavoidable with synthetic greases, controlling it will be through testing something simple like a mica/silica/moly could reduce that.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  7. #87
    Anti-Socialist Texan


    geargnasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,660
    Off the top of my head, it isn't the high end that makes the synthetic base oil appealing to my way of thinking, it's the COLD properties that make it more desirable compared to conventional oils. Look at some base oil specs on some common greases, you'll see what I mean. The PAO stuff (like air-conditioning lubricants for R-134a) has some desirable properties as well.


    BTW congratulations on that last post bringing you to 9K and another boolit!

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  8. #88
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    that mobile-1 looks like it's in the range we want.
    i particularly like the -40 rating that is very,very good.
    bruce from page #4 says he can get the soaps and such.
    he knows greases but not the boolit requirements, we can fill him in on those as we go along.
    and he can help with the additions.
    i wonder if by raising the visc it will raise the low end temps i can deal with 0 to 100 as shooting temps.
    the soaps should be helping us with thier lubricity,lowering the tack on thier own.

    didn't even notice the boolit thing
    Last edited by runfiverun; 03-30-2012 at 11:50 PM.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  9. #89
    Anti-Socialist Texan


    geargnasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,660
    That's the thing with having an extreme base that more than covers the extreme range of shooting conditions that the lube might experience, if we muck it up some with thickener or tack modifier, there's still a wide margin of error.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  10. #90
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    like i said an alloy
    get it about the same each time and it's un noticeable.
    a bhn # or two, woon't alter the outcome.
    and the starting base can be switched till we find the swing point between high and low.
    [shudder]]]]]]]]]]
    sounds simple to me.

    i don't know how we done that, answering each other before we asked.
    whomever reads this will need to know some of this was typed and posted at the same time. so the back and forth seems a bit jumbeled.
    there was some real time pm's happening also.
    and yes we were reading each others minds.
    Last edited by runfiverun; 03-31-2012 at 12:14 AM.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  11. #91
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado
    Posts
    1,277
    After reading the posts concerning the use of paper pulp suspended within the lube I have become quite intrigued. I've played with making paper by shredding recycled paper in a blender with water. The paper slurry is then strained through a screen and old fashioned paper is the result. I can't help but think that shredding the paper, straining out the excess water, and then adding that pulp to the boolit lube. the remaining water would have to be 'cooked' out but the pulp could be suspended within the lube.

    I suppose the lube could be stirred while cooling to keep the pulp suspended until the lube thickens while hardening. That way the the semi-solid lube could then be put into a lube stick mold or placed into the lubrisizer. I'm sure pan lubing could also be accomplished so long as the pulp content was at least as deep as the lube groove. I'm going to have to play with this. Frank

  12. #92
    Anti-Socialist Texan


    geargnasher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,660
    MIght work like you say, pulp it and add it to the melted lube oils/whatever while still wet and cook off the excess water. I played with a small blob of Felix lube and some hand-shredded paper towel fibers, I don't think it will pan-lube, too much drag. I also tried making a paste of just chassis grease and fibers, that might work but not as a pan lube. It looks like it would be no problem to inject into the grooves per a normal sizer, though, the bands and sizer die holes would shear any errant paper fibers.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  13. #93
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    608
    LOL after reading a few pages here you guys are all over as far as lubes go with so many questions It would take years to splan it all.

    With wild guess as to lets mix this or that to make this or that. Im all for testing out stuff but keep it simple and start with 1 or 2 ideas.

    Just cause pig fat works for boolit lube it is not an answer for all applications.

    1 Define the application
    2 then 4-5 properties that the lube needs.
    maybe start with known product like LARS RED or the felix lube and go from there

    Then i will can round up some test samples of thickeners and additves.

    Gear i will get what additves and thickeners you want to try just go slow and ask 1 or 2 questions at a time because some questions asked here will take a book to answer.
    Gear I will send a box of stuff next week to keep you busy.

    bruce

  14. #94
    Boolit Master

    softpoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bryan-College Station Tx
    Posts
    1,222
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin Junky View Post
    From Chemola's website:

    "Pumpable with a high pressure (10,000 psi) lubrication handgun."

    It's neither going to melt in my microwave nor flow through my Lyman 450. I suppose I could try it as a pan lube melted on my hot plate.

    MJ

    P.S. The problem with it's high melting point is that it'll anneal HT'd Pb alloys; therefore, pan lubing is out as well.
    This stuff I have from Louisiana has to have a high pressure gun like that, but it's not as thick as you might think. You could pack it in a lubrisizer by hand, and it would be soft. You are right about melting this stuff, though, I think it will stand 550f before it drops
    Cast Boolits, Where lead balloons go over....

  15. #95
    Boolit Master

    softpoint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bryan-College Station Tx
    Posts
    1,222
    if someone would like this tube of Liquid O Ring to analyze and maybe mix into something else, PM me, and I will ship it to you.
    Cast Boolits, Where lead balloons go over....

  16. #96
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    608
    Ok How about this

    I do not why cold barrels throw first couple shots unless it has to due with heat and the perhaps melting or release of oils in the lube not being "oily" enough when cold.

    For a NON melting with minimal softeneing as a thickener use bentone or Silica or ploy urea. Only option for me is Silica and the bentone. Lithium Complex as well as the other metals all have melt or drop points of 500-550F where the non melters will just cook but not melt or RELEASE any of the base fluids, they just "dry out".

    Some of the simple lime soap "block" greases are sodium based soaps made with oil fatty oil / acid is cooked and the the acid is reacted with alkali (sodium hydroxide, Draino) mixed in water when fully reacted and the water is boiled back out the cooled grease forma gel structure and this trype can be made at home but sodium grease mixes with water and has a low melt point 300F or so.

    May end up with more thickener or gellant than base fluid to get disired consistancey.

    For a base oil or a fluid to get the right amount of body and stickiness without a lot of THINNING as it gets hot you need a High VI try Poly isobutene (PIB) VI about 100 or a high vis Poly alpha olefin (PAO) VI about 140 or best a Poly Glycol (PAG) VI about 240.

    For a non rusting or staining Friction modifier that has good HIGH VI to resist thinng try
    Polyol esters (POE) maybe as the base fluid too. Also maybe PEG esters or carbo waxs but they have low melt point 50-60C.

    Tackifiers, rust inhibitors, anti oxidants, copper corrosion inhibitors etc can be added at small amounts <1% to about any formula to tie up loose ends.

    bruce

  17. #97
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    yeah there was some wide swings in what was being looked at.
    we are trying to narrow down what will and what won't work as far as a base and a lube.
    it seems we want.

    a synthetic grease.
    a way to modify it's viscosity.
    it has to be flung off the boolit at the muzzle.
    it needs to be temp/viscous stable from 0 to 100
    leave a very thin coating in the bbl that doesn't shrink or build up.

    i know.
    we aren't asking a lot.
    but you got a mechanic and a redneck working on it, and there isn't a lot of reference material at the local library.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  18. #98
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    bruce can you break down what the numbers mean for the base oil.
    i can pick stuff out of your list that i think will work based on a conventional lubes needs.

    we theorize the first shot is because the bore condition changes in between uses.
    the lube or coating in the bbl is cracking [drying and shrinking] or thickening and we are reconditioning it with the first shot or two.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  19. #99
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3,623
    I'll test anything the lube specialists come up with. I've got a few <1MOA loads for my '06 that start to open up at 1900 fps with BAC. I've also got a couple 350 and 444 loads that shoot nearly as well. Just let me know where to send the money.

    MJ

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,626
    http://www.chemola.com/product-detai...d=1&sid=3&i=13
    finally found it.
    this is the exact stuff i am using.
    it surprisingly is a #2 as it is a malleable solid, far more so than a #2 chassis grease.
    so the glycols [2% airc] are thickening this up?
    the dry up you talked about is something this does when heated in he microwave.
    it does flow through the lubrisizer with no heat and low air pressure.
    if this is a solid #2 a #3 would most likely be a better option in this same type.?
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

Page 5 of 153 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141555105 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check