"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

you forgot that the visc of the lith grease lubes is easily adjustable with a simple addition.
either more wax or [in my case] a poe.
i have gotten to the point with almost all my lubes.
from the moly through the Lith-purple and the E-lubes where i can plain out adjust them for hot/cold weather by making a simple base lube then modifying that to suit the temperature at the time.
if i were to check and lube to go shoot tomorrow, i could pick one of them, adjust it slightly and go
shoot and show the same results as last month.
and when the weather gets cold i can adjust for that easily and lube up enough to get through that time frame also.
that's where i started, the window has been widened with the addition of the stearates.
allowing the use of less wax, it just hit a wall right at the 90+ mark.
adjusting the volume of lube used would allow me to get past that hurdle.[i believe]
but i would still have hot/cold weather separation.
is using one formula of lube but in varying amounts an acceptable cheat?
or more work?
having three piles of boolits instead of two.

[Eutectic]

"EsterBee" Report #1

Well, my .22 Hornet went 35 rounds on my "EsterBee" binary mix before accuracy started slowly downhill with about half minute group size increase. This is actually the longest run for this gun and this load. My own standard BAC mix will go 20 rounds with this load combination.
Actually...... I don't know why this load even shoots; not to mention accurately.
It's a WW case with a 6 1/2 Rem primer. 12.5 grs of 1680 and my cast 47gr Hollow Point gascheck. It chronographs 2600fps.
The bullet is cast from a 8.5 bhn alloy! It's for varmints and boy is it explosive! Even V-Max "J" words watch in awe.
So lesson number one is that a butter soft bullet can be shot fast. Yes the boolit has to have a low S.D. and twist can't be too fast.... The lube has to pass the "basic test".

One of the basics is preventing lead. This Hornet load doesn't lead with my standard lube, nor does it with "EsterBee" binary, nor does it with my current mix "EsterBee350". I tried to make a deer load for an old Winchester Model 64 .25-35 a while back. I modified a RCBS 120gr gascheck to a 117gr flat point and proceeded to shoot it at 2300fps. Those that know Winchesters, know the .25-35's have a 1 in 8" twist. I was using just under 10bhn but it wouldn't hold it. Groups at 50 yards were 3 1/2". The gun is capable of 3/4" at that range... even better. I theorize the poor soft slug slid like it was on an icy, slippery slope! BUT IT DIDN'T LEAD! A "basic" for my lubes is no lead even in harsh conditions.

I know Alox 350 is well hated here. I often wonder why Col. Harrison's lube man picked it for him in the first place? I agree that it shoots dirty. (but not to the degree I read with my recipe anyway) But I also think some fouling is necessary for our bore to be uniform shot to shot......

So back to "EsterBee".... It is slick in the binary mix, with scary small amounts only needed... But it quit in my hot Hornet load and I think it shot slick to do it?

The soot and black lube on cases from Alox 350 lubes is another "bellyache" .... But could that be a good sign? I want to theorize that Alox 350 (or 2138F) was picked because like a good fireman it runs to the heat. But a good fireman gets to take a shower when it's all over where our Alox blends don't.... Or do they?

I am impressed how the POE 2 stroke oil cleans as it works but I'm not sure it's as willing to jump into the fire as ol'350.
I will agree that current lubes (50-50) have too much alox... Yet I think some is good because of my thoughts above... But what if the amounts of 350 were less and the lube viscosity was softened with POE 2 stroke oil instead? So I make a three part mix of beeswax, POE, and Alox 350!
My first "EsterBee350" was pretty thin.... Like warm peanut butter.... But I used it anyway.... in the hot Hornet load! It worked! Who says lube has to be harder for 35,000 psi loads?
Still, I added more Beeswax to make "EsterBee350" easier to handle if nothing else. Accuracy with the Hornet load was superb. I ran a test in a Marlin 1894CL .25-20 with an 80 gr gascheck at 1800fps. This gun has visible machine marks across the lands from original reaming. I wanted to see two things. Both lube grooves were filled on the boolit (WAY TOO MUCH!) and I shot two shots on a large cardboard box at 12 yards. No visible lube spatters were found. Under high magnification, the machine marks were not filled with lube... This is what I wanted to see.

I shot some more .25-20's with a 71gr HP (soft 8.5bhn) at 50 yards from an accurate Winchester Model 92. I used this gun because it throws a "cold start" about 1" left. "EsterBee350 loads was barely left (1/4"?) on three different cold starts. It shot stellar groups but there was a very interesting thing.... Very small specks of lube had hit the 50 yd target after 15 rounds or so. The specks were black and appeared even oily. Like they had 'soaked' into a bigger spot on the target. This lube mix is a pretty peach color, yet the specks were dirty.... black dirty...

I continue with the Hornet with three round groups each with a cold start. Here's a picture of 11, 12, and 13 at 85 yards into 1/2". No cold starts in the Hornet... first shot right in there!

Eutectic

[Longwood]

"EsterBee" Report #1

I am impressed how the POE 2 stroke oil cleans as it works but I'm not sure it's as willing to jump into the fire as ol'350.

I am a pilot that flies Ultralight aircraft with two stroke engines. These engines work harder and run at higher temps than your average two stroke.
I had been using a synthetic two stroke oil that a friend developed that works much better than the $30+ a quart oils.
I watched him making some tests once and was amazed at how much better his oil works. It also "runs to the heat" as you say better than a couple of the super expensive racing oils I had bought and brought by.
I had tried some two stroke oil as a lube additive in the past and it worked OK but nothing to rant about and after reading all the discussion here decided I would like to try it again only with my friends oil.
I had not seen or been able to reach him and I need another five gallon jug.
I finally talked to him yesterday and we got over onto the subject of lead bullets and he told me that he would like to do some experiments with an additive for bullet lube. I mentioned the problems such as high heat and pressure and he went past it like it was a "Not".
He laid some jargon on me but had my brain cells smoking right away.
The guy is an actual genius that knows his stuff and not just a person that runs of at the mouth.
He is hard to get to talk face to face to but now and then, I get the privilege.
He spends 90 percent of his time at races around the world.
Tough job I guess,,,, but hey,,, Someone has to do it.

PS
When he has it, I will send you some to try if you like.

[geargnasher]

Interesting, Eutectic, thanks for the report!

It seems that the ester oil IS too slick on its own with the beeswax, and the Alox is too gummy, but together they fix each other's problems in the lube, kind of like adding lots of surfacants and dispersants to engine oil to make up for the sludging of the viscosity-modifying polymer additives. A balanced package, so to speak.

I loaded up some various Zombie lubes last night to go try in my .45 Colt this afternoon after I get some tile work done. Won't tell much, but I mainly want to see if it will keep the bore clean. Your comment about the machine marks in the barrel not collecting fouling is EXACTLY what I'm after with the PAG lubes.

I'm going to stick BOTH of my feet in my mouth if I end up adding Alox to my Zombie lube like Lamar suggested a few posts back!

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

I don't get it. You can buy magnesium stearate. Why make it?

The only form I've found magnesium stearate in is a powder. By making a soap out of MgOH you can change the composition; i.e., make it pliable enough to run through a Lyman 450.

Another question, aside from making a work-stable Li/Na/Mg grease to any thickness you want, I'm curious why mess with magnesium soap grease at all? I wonder if it has some properties we've overlooked with the other thickeners.

So far we know this: Lithum grease is pretty clean stuff and makes good boolit lube. It's "thixotropic" in a loose sense of the word when mixed with petroleum waxes, not so bad with beeswax.

Sodium grease can leave a residue in the barrel, and loves to mix with water. It's very work-stable, though, and blends with about anything, including a few other thickeners.

Aluminum grease is very sticky and makes an outstanding binding agent in lube.

Calcium grease is waterproof and fairly work-stable, but *can* leave a residue in the grooves that bakes on hard and builds up.

Calcium sulfonate grease looks promising, but I'd like to try it in a lube that doesn't have moly in it too so I can see if the fouling it makes is moly fouling, gellant fouling, or powder/primer/boolit residue accumulating.

I haven't tried magnesium, antimony, lead, or any other soap greases yet.

That's precisely why I'm suggesting Mg... and it fits right between Na and Al on the periodic table.

Lithium soap grease and beeswax is tough to beat because it doesn't work-soften too much, the grease raises the melt point of the lube considerably, it's fairly clean-burning if you use the right grease, it's very water-resistant and storage-stable, and easy to make it the consistency you want. I hate to come all this way, 14 pages and a couple thousand rounds later only to find 'Lithi-Bee' made with synthetic oil is the ultimate "Extreme Lube", but it just might turn out that way.

Perhaps... or give Mg a try.

I'm not giving up on the Wax-free lube yet though!
Gear

Wax-free is my goal too... something of a soap with the consistency about like Javelina that has a broad transition from its solid state to its liquid state and a final melt temp in the 160-180F range.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

R5R,

I doubled the volume of your E-Purple with the addition of beeswax and pan lubed about a 1/2 dozen boolits to test. The lube was too hard for my purposes so I added a teaspoon of Jojoba oil. I'll send you groups after Friday's shoot... the '06 will start clean so I'll shoot three foulers before shooting three, five shot groups for the record. I'll link all four targets to my PM later this week. Sorry I didn't have any ATF on hand but I'm only going to use my 22.0/4759 load behind .311"/178 grain/WW boolits... the average velocity should be just below 1800 fps.

MJ

[btroj]

MJ- the fact Mg is between Al and Na means nothing.
On the periodic table the columns are what matters most, all elements in a column have a similar outer electron shell and behave in a similar manner.
Mg is between Al and Na but will have very different chemical properties from either of them. Mg is right above Ca and would make a soap with similar properties to a Ca soap. Yes, the same Ca that is in the Alox agear so loathes.

If you can get a powdered Mg stearate I think that would be the way to go. I have had very good luck getting a powdered Na stearate to mix into various lubes. I have a feeling a powder Mg stearate would behave in a similar manner.

I am not trying to rain on any parades. It just seems you have a single minded plan and won't accept no for an answer. In the end you may just need to give it a shot. How well it will work I don't know. Give it a shot?

Brad

[geargnasher]

Back from the pistol range, I tested the Neon Zombie with beeswax and a BG PAG/Vaseline/Al. Stearate grease, then tested Lithi-bee with Bruce's 15% Ucon 32/lith 12, then tested some microwax Zombie lube saturated with paper fibers. Test mule was my .45 New Vaquero. Groups were average to above average for this gun and load, no leading whatsoever with any thing tried, thus proving once again that just dang near anything will work in a revolver for lube.

The Lithi-Bee left a nice, light, almost clear lube star. The Neon Zombie, much thicker and stickier, left almost no lube star, but spattered the 15-yard target with huge globs of very clean lube. Obviously too thick and too sticky for the pressures and velocity. The paper lube was uneventful, shot well, didn't lead, and neither made a lube star nor made it to the target.

I'm going to try the Lithi-Bee in my rifle next, but I'm also going to shoot another long string of the wax-free lube through it to check cold barrel flyers, I haven't cleaned the gun yet from the last round of this.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

MJ- the fact Mg is between Al and Na means nothing.
On the periodic table the columns are what matters most, all elements in a column have a similar outer electron shell and behave in a similar manner.
Mg is between Al and Na but will have very different chemical properties from either of them. Mg is right above Ca and would make a soap with similar properties to a Ca soap. Yes, the same Ca that is in the Alox agear so loathes.

1) We don't want to incorporate the negative aspects of Na into the lube, and...

2) What makes you think Ca is responsible for the undesirable attributes associated with Alox? Ca(OH)2 is supposed to be Non-flammable just like Mg(OH)2. Doesn't it necessarily need to burn in order to leave carbon behind? Isn't carbon fouling the problem with Alox?

If you can get a powdered Mg stearate I think that would be the way to go. I have had very good luck getting a powdered Na stearate to mix into various lubes. I have a feeling a powder Mg stearate would behave in a similar manner.

I am not trying to rain on any parades. It just seems you have a single minded plan and won't accept no for an answer. In the end you may just need to give it a shot. How well it will work I don't know. Give it a shot?

Brad

Hold on a there second... this is the first time I've gotten "NO" with any sort of an explanation but first you tell me, "... I have a feeling a powder Mg stearate would behave in a similar manner (to Na stearate)"... and, "you may just need to give it a shot"? Doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about. I am no chemist by any stretch of the imagination and will gladly butt out but you just said that elements in the columns of the periodic table exhibit similar properties. By that logic, why is Li the "choosen one" which sits just on top of hydroscopic 'ol Na?

MJ

[geargnasher]

MJ, it isn't the carbon that's the issue with Alox. Powder fouling has lots of carbon. Carbon is soft and easily wiped out each shot by the boolit. The problem is when everything else burns off and the calcium stearate is left behind.

Are you familiar with bathtub rings? The dreaded scaly buildup called "soap scum"? That's calcium stearate formed when lime in hard water interacts with sodium stearate in bar soap. This is exactly what occurs in the gun barrel when the solvents burn or melt away and the hard, chalky junk gets left behind in the bore. It's black or grey in appearance because of powder grime, but it's calcium stearate just the same. Many of the other metal soaps like lithium don't leave this hard residue.

Gear

[btroj]

MJ, I meant no insult. Honest.
I actually am a chemist, have a BS in it actually.
I think the hygroscopic nature of Na based grease may not really be an issue for us. I don't think we plan to have water in actually contact with the lube so I don't think it will be an issue. Would I want it in a wheel bearing where water contact along with sheer forces could water down and degrade the lube? Nope. A firearm barrel is much different. I don't remember anyone having trouble with Felix lube which uses Na stearate.

Can't say why Na grease is worse in water than Li grease. Na is also known for making a "fibrous" grease while Li is smoother.

And remember we are not making a grease containing Mg hydroxide, it is reacted within the grease manufacturing to produce Mg stearate. The hydroxyl group from the Mg hydroxide combine with the proton from the stearate acid to form water.

I think what Gear is commenting on is a commn feeling that Alox can leave a fouling that may degrade accuracy over a long string without cleaning. Gear thinks the Ca soap in the Alox is part of the problem. Mg behaves much like Ca in many instances and may have a similar problem.

I am far from being an expert on any of this. This entire thread has made me think more about lubes than I ever have before. I have learned more about what lubes are, and more importantly, are not. My biggest problem area is a complete and utter lack of knowledge about oils and greases. Sadly, they don't teach much of that in pharmacy school.

Please accept my apology if I stepped on your toes. That was certainly not my intention. I was trying to point out potential flaws in your thinking. I applaud you for trying to push the envelope of your knowledge, that is where good ideas come from. I am trying to do likewise. Ear and Run have a far better comprehension of greases and oils than I do. That gives them a huge advantage. It I am trying my best to learn.

Now I need to go reheat my Na stearate /red n tacky mix. It is still too soft and sticky, I am hoping a hearing to a higher temp will change that. I don't know how much more Na stearate I want to add.

[Eutectic]

I had tried some two stroke oil as a lube additive in the past and it worked OK but nothing to rant about and after reading all the discussion here decided I would like to try it again only with my friends oil.
I had not seen or been able to reach him and I need another five gallon jug.
I finally talked to him yesterday and we got over onto the subject of lead bullets and he told me that he would like to do some experiments with an additive for bullet lube. I mentioned the problems such as high heat and pressure and he went past it like it was a "Not".

Longwood,

I think that's a great idea for you to try it again (making lube) using your friend's oil in a boolit lube! You will even have a consultant as well! Your friend may have some thoughts or suggestions we have missed here as well.... Keep us informed and find out what synthetic base your friend's oil uses if he will tell us.

Eutectic

[Marlin Junky]

Sorry about rambling on about Mg soap. Actually, if one does a chemical analysis of bath tub ring, they'll probably find some Mg(OH)2 instead of just Ca(OH)2.

MJ

[btroj]

I bet bath tub ring has lots of magnesium and calcium carbonates. And iron, manganese, and who knows what else. I think the soaps bind up the metals and the carbonates, which tend to be very insoluble, and leave that ring. That is how water softener does the trick, no metal ions to form carbonates so no scum and ring. The detergents are supposed to be a bit better about this but I don't know how they would do in a lube.

[btroj]

Just added more Na stearate to the red n tacky. Got it much hotter too. The heat was enough to begin to melt a bit of the grease. The greae ended up more ranslucent and got much stiffer.

You guys were right, the heat was the key. I definitely changes the physical properties of the stuff.

I need to stiffen it just a bit more. It leave a stickiness when kneaded between the fingers. It does stick well to bullets. I plan to try 10 as is then go from there.

[geargnasher]

Sorry about rambling on about Mg soap. Actually, if one does a chemical analysis of bath tub ring, they'll probably find some Mg(OH)2 instead of just Ca(OH)2.

MJ

Yes, bathtub rings have lots of other stuff in them too, depending on water composition. Does the fact that magnesium stearate deposits the same way as calcium stearate in a bathtub ring tell you something predictable about magnesium stearate in boolit lube? My only interest in it was in a tri-stearate combination with sodium and lithium, in which the magnesium proportion was one part in five.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Just added more Na stearate to the red n tacky. Got it much hotter too. The heat was enough to begin to melt a bit of the grease. The greae ended up more ranslucent and got much stiffer.

You guys were right, the heat was the key. I definitely changes the physical properties of the stuff.

I need to stiffen it just a bit more. It leave a stickiness when kneaded between the fingers. It does stick well to bullets. I plan to try 10 as is then go from there.

Conventional greases lose their color right about the time the lithium thickener melts, that's the nature of the beast. Mobil SCH-220 grease doesn't lose it's color at all, there's some serious dye technology going on there.

I really like the way the sodium and lithium work together, I think you will too, it makes a lube with a melt point around 450F, you can leave it on the dashboard of your car in the direct sun all day and it won't weep a drop. I don't know about the conventional grease, but the synthetic stuff I've been messing with (that has Group IV PAO oil in it) is still very flexible in my freezer at 0F. If no major fouling issues come up, this might just do the trick.

Even if fouling issues from the sodium soap come up, I think maybe just a titch of POE oil in the mix might take care of it like it did with Eutectic's BAC. If the ester oil will act as a solvent to Alox, it should take care of simple sodium fouling not problemo and at very low concentrations. Ester oils can have very high VI's, too, so shouldn't hinder performance at either temp extreme.

Gear

[bruce381]

unfortunatly haveing a lube that has the Same COE in a hot or cold barrel maybe possible But a moot point due to the barrel itself holding or letting oils out of the "pours" aswell as size changes when hot or cold on how it grips the boolit? or am I off here in thinking.

Also random thought for a more temp reisistent lube I think more NON liquid/melting things are needed like?? Zinc Oxide, Mica, teflon etc as a solid filler.

[geargnasher]

Solid fillers in lube are very iffy. If any of it gets blown out of the grooves, round the boolit, and sprayed down the bore ahead of the boolit before the boolit gets engraved (this happens more than folks realize), then the boolit is forced to "run over" the lube. If the lube contains solids, they are like gravel on a smooth, paved road and the boolit either has to shove it out ahead or let it embed, which grates off lead. Col. Harrison tested solid fillers of various types and concluded there was no advantage to them, I'm thinking the same thing from my tests with Metamucil, graphite, cake flour, and paper fibers so far (and a few others). If one could keep all the lube in the groove, paper fiber or wood flour gellant (like is used for gelling fiberglass resin for tricky repairs) would be outstanding. But that's a big "if".

Barrel size changes though temp swings or from shooting is always going to be a factor, but this is where lead-alloy boolits really excel at consistency. The boolits are inherently flexible, and conform well to slight differences. I don't think that barrel steel holds enough lube to be much of an issue if the COE of the lube film remains consistent and doesn't "dry out".

Keep in mind that from the beginning of this "quest" I had the notion of developing a lube that would leave very little behind and not require a tremendous amount of "seasoning" to build up an acceptable layer of fouling. The main reason for this is so that a person could actually clean their rifle, oil it, and put it away for months, then pull it out, wipe out the bore, and pre-condition it with a patch treated with either the lube itself, or the primary oil in the lube. After dry-patching once, the barrel should be prepped for the field without having the huge inconvenience of having to shoot a few foulers before a hunt. I doubt anything can be formulated to achieve perfection here, but the advantage of pre-fouling a barrel without shooting and using a lube that doesn't require a lot of shooting to get the accuracy back after a cleaning would be huge, and even if the first shot or two was slightly off, I would think we can do better than what most of the lubes I've used will do with the first shot after a cleaning.

Looks like the PAG and POE based lubes are showing some promise, the only hitch in the works there is developing a lube using a beeswax base that doesn't melt easily in hot weather. So far, using the UCON 32/Lithium 12 stearate (15%) grease raises the melt point of the beeswax just enough to be viable for reasonable hot-weather and hot-chamber performance, but the addition of the metal soap gellant I think is going to be essential for hot weather. The good news is that commercial #2 PAG grease made with lithium or aluminum gellants are available commercially, so it might be possible for the average Joe to make this stuff without having to buy a 50-lb sack of gellant. We might be back to the "too much oil, not enough gellant" thing that has haunted the effectiveness of Lithi-Bee concoctions in the past, in which case we'll have to make it from scratch anyway, but if that's what it takes to make a superior lube, that's what it takes.

Gear

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Gear, have you tried Kroil in any of your lubes? I'm just asking because the stuff is so magical for nearly anything else. Mostly I'm just following along and trying to keep up...

Randy