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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #41
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    The biggest problem with modifying existing greases is knowing what's in the grease to begin with so you know what to add that will be compatible. A good synthetic base oil and a lot of thickener should do it. I don't know that any EP additives are really necessry, and I don't like calcium soaps. Good grease, not so good with the junk it leaves in a rifle barrel.

    You mentioned Lucas, which reminded me about the "friction modifier" we discussed earlier. I have a variety of that stuff in the garage, from the various Mopar additives to the Ford stuff, and some BG and Winn's modifier, and of course the classic AC Delco limited slip additive. I wish I could tell you that it's an additive package that reverses the viscosity trend with regard to heat, but I don't think it is. Just stuff to keep the LS clutches from chattering on turns. I was always told that the Ford stuff was "sperm whale oil" and it might have been at one time, just a good film lubricant.

    I wish I knew more about UHMWPE powder, I'll have to do some more research.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  2. #42
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    bentonite clay hmmm
    airc this is either in kitty litter, or is the binder in papers.
    it might be used in both.
    the kitty litter does soak up oil.

    the cotton and reduced jpw with mineral spirits might prove out as an excellent lube cookie.
    it might be able to be added into something else but don't think it would do so in anything other than clumps.
    paper has binders in it which i think will create the same problems, and papers with titanium dioxide are really abrasive.
    a suspension of wood would have to be dry wood pulp but getting it on the boolit would be the obstacle, paper is almost a boolit lube in it's make up. with carriers binders and modifiers.

    the modified greases or a tumble coating are the two best solutions i can come up with so far, especially after all the testing i have done.
    the ingredients and balances will not be the normal things we are used to.
    i don't have an issue with pulverizing kitty litter instead of reducing jpw.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  3. #43
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    ...We don't have to take an NLGI#2 Amsoil grease and thicken it with who-knows-what to make boolit lube, we can get grease already thick enough...

    Gear
    Gear,

    If you notice the "Technical Properties" of AMSOIL X-Treme Synthetic Food Grade Grease, (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/gxc.aspx?zo=530293) the first thing they list is a "Thickener"; i.e., "Synthetic Aluminum Complex". What would be an example of a "Synthetic Aluminum Complex"?

    MJ

    P.S. Check out this link:

    http://www.opti-lube.com/
    Last edited by Marlin Junky; 03-29-2012 at 06:21 PM.

  4. #44
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    Bentonite is used to thicken some greases for use in stupidly hot enviroments. It also doesn't provide the viscous drag that lithium and calicium complexes do, or not as much. When combined with a synthetic oil, it leaves a thinner lube film behind, according to an article I read the bentonite will leave a 50% thinner film behind than the base oil alone will. This could be good for gunbarrels, bad for bearings. Other carrier/thickeners can have the opposite effect, leaving almost twice the film layer of the base oil alone. Interesting stuff. Bentonite grease, like everything else, has advantages and disadvantages in industry, but it might work as a good boolit lube. I do know that bentonite is incompatible with many common grease thickeners.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  5. #45
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Gear,

    It looks like block greases can range from NLGI#5 to 8+. They are also reasonably priced.

    Attached is a spec sheet (I didn't bother to format it) for a lithium/mineral/moly block grease. If it isn't the proper viscosity (i.e., too hard) can it be adjusted with mineral oil? According to the spec's, it melts at 365F.

    MJ
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Opti-Lube.pdf  
    Last edited by Marlin Junky; 03-29-2012 at 07:10 PM.

  6. #46
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    MJ, I looked at that and a few others at the opti-lube site a few days ago, I was particularly interested in the synthetics but couldn't find a link to more info from their site for those.

    Here's another one I've been pondering. It's probably similar to the valve grease mentioned by some of the members before in the other thread. http://toyointernational.com/eaj-600...h-temp-grease/

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 03-29-2012 at 07:44 PM. Reason: add link
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  7. #47
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Gear,

    It looks like opti-lube's synthetics are grade 2 with a very wide operating range:

    http://www.opti-lube.com/synth.htm

    I wasn't able to find an operating range for the block greases.

    MJ

  8. #48
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    mineral oil is listed as one of it's ingredients.
    i didn't see it's number.
    i went and looked at some greases and such today at our local distributor.
    just as a comparison #2 is what we use for greasing front ends on cars and such.
    #1,#1-1/2,and #2 are easily located here.
    #2 is the easiest to get of course.
    i put out some feelers on number-5 a whole box [12 tubes] is about the lowest number they want
    to order in.
    it might not come that way but they didn't know.
    even with the mine here, they had a pretty good selection of different #2's and a few specialty ones, but nothing suitable.
    the guy asked what i was gonna do with it. i told him i was going use about 1 thousandth of an thick seal of it to hold back 45 thousand k of pressure.
    that got me a raised eyebrow.
    i then chuckeled and said i was gonna make a specialty boolit lube for my rifle.
    he says allright and climbs down from where he was, led me into his office took my number down and is gonna make some calls.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  9. #49
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    I have 2 tubes of grease here at the shop that is used to pack plug valves and such in high pressure well fracking. It is already nearly as thick as most "soft lubes".I have thought about this stuff before as a bullet lube, it is pretty sticky, and one of the characteristics of it is that it cannot thin out too much in heat,or the valves will leak, and cannot thicken too much in the cold, or the valves will not operate. I am going to see if I can find some more information on it. It comes in standard size tubes, but requires a special "grease gun" because it is too thick for a regular automotive type gun.
    Cast Boolits, Where lead balloons go over....

  10. #50
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    this more like it.

    http://www.chemola.com/product-detai...d=1&sid=4&i=18

    -20 to + 450 is a typical useable temp zone for most of these things.
    but if these two different lubes i have are a number 3 anything over that is super stiff.
    i can't find a grease number on either box i somewhat assumed it was a number 5.
    as they are double the hardness/visosity easily of #2.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  11. #51
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    Sounds like something I'd say. The somewhat nervous UPS dude dropped off a 64-pound box of "flammable and explosive" stuff from a reloading supply house at my door this afternoon, he asked me if I was making bombs, I asked him if I looked like a friggin' towelhead. I told him he should have delivered it to me first rather than have to have all that dangerous stuff riding around in the back of his truck all day! I opened the box in front of him just to show him what it was. I'm sure he expects to seem me in the news.

    I don't think we'll find what we want at the autoparts store, unfortunately, but the industrial stuff can be had, for sure.

    Here's what I'm leaning toward at this point, see if any of you know something close:

    NLGI 6 or so hardness
    Bentone, aluminum, or calcium sulfonate thickener? A "no drop point" grease may not be the way to go, it would be tough to get a hard, block, non-melting grease into a lube-sizer you know!) I'm thinking bentone grease would be a great stop-leak, though. Just not sure what the best thickener (gelling) system will prove to be. Input???
    Synthetic base oil with heat-stable viscosity, perhaps a silicone or POA?
    If we can find a product with the above qualities, I think EP and non-dropping properties might prove to be "overrated" for boolit lube. Definetely need a synthetic base oil for thermal stability, perhaps even the lithium thickeners would do in that case. Moly would be a nice bonus to deal with the high-pressure of the land edges in tight twists/high velocity, not sure how much it's needed though.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  12. #52
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Run5...

    How is Desco Valve Lubricants and Sealants : High Temp : 1055 purchased?

    Opti-Lube as per pound pricing and they appear to be based in NM (505 area code). Their website says they'll customize (http://hardgrease.com/) and also ship online orders daily from their Utah warehouse. Granted, their online presence isn't very organized but I don't see that as a problem.

    MJ

  13. #53
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    I only have one reservation about the valve packing greases, will they stick too well to the boolit? Also, I'm not sure what the "speed rating" is, these seem to be formulated to stay put and resist just about any kind of enviromental assault possible. Not sure that speed rating matters too much really, we exceed the speed rating of most greases several dozen times with typical cast boolit shooting.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  14. #54
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    softpoint.
    i'm guessing amber colored.
    about 1-1/8th inch across,and about 10" long.
    the grease gun they go into is an air powered pump.
    i have some here,and the moly equivelant which i use in my regular everyday lube.
    i have used the amber straight, by applying by hand.
    it is what i was writing about in the earlier testing.
    it works, but i can see there is gonna be some changes needed.
    even chemola shows temperature extreme lubes, one for hot, one for cold.
    hopefully our narrower window won't call for that.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  15. #55
    Boolit Master Grandpas50AE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    bentonite clay hmmm
    airc this is either in kitty litter, or is the binder in papers.
    it might be used in both.
    the kitty litter does soak up oil.

    the cotton and reduced jpw with mineral spirits might prove out as an excellent lube cookie.
    it might be able to be added into something else but don't think it would do so in anything other than clumps.
    paper has binders in it which i think will create the same problems, and papers with titanium dioxide are really abrasive.
    a suspension of wood would have to be dry wood pulp but getting it on the boolit would be the obstacle, paper is almost a boolit lube in it's make up. with carriers binders and modifiers.

    the modified greases or a tumble coating are the two best solutions i can come up with so far, especially after all the testing i have done.
    the ingredients and balances will not be the normal things we are used to.
    i don't have an issue with pulverizing kitty litter instead of reducing jpw.
    R5R, if you are still wanting to find a way to use a wood-pulp base carrier, give this a thought: RV toilet paper is designed to dissolve and break down quickly in a liquid solution, so it may be easy to dissolve it into melted grease and then let the solution cool where the dissolved paper now becomes a carrier/binder. Not sure what proportions of grease to paper would be necessary, but there are usually no additives or other chemical compounds in RV toilet paper so that it will not clump up while in liquid solution.
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  16. #56
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    http://www.piper-oilfield.com/
    thier distributor or one of them anyways.
    there seems to be so many makers of the stuff i am working the local backwards.
    once i find out what they have [what i can get] then i am gonna research the best option available.
    i am thinking that any sort of e.p. is not necessary for the application we have in mind, and might make it harder to modify the base ingredient.
    it hopefully will be something we can add to without the chance of burning or ruining the base.
    too hard and we might be able to get it to take an oil.
    too soft and we will have to add smething to get it right, that may affect the temp effectiveness.
    so we need something close right from the start that can be changed with a simple oil/fluid addition.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  17. #57
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    Gear:

    I have to ask a question here and trust me I am no expert so bear with me.

    I haven't read every post so if it has been covered already then my apologies.

    I agree with what I am reading about grease with various metallic soaps and such and other additives that may be difficult to deal with or build up in rifle barrels. etc. but what about making your own grease?

    Soaps/greases can be made from mineral oils, vegetable oils or animal fats. You use pure oil or fat and caustic or similar. For instance here are some simple grease recipes:

    - 4. Ball-Bearing Grease
    Ingredient Kgs.
    Stearic Acid 20 Paraffin oil, white 180 Lime water 4

    - 9. Mixed Base GreaseIngredient Kgs.
    Tallow 135.00
    Lime water 0.525
    Caustic soda 1.500
    Water 0.200
    Paraffinox oil, pale yellow 84.275

    -11. Grease for High Speed Wheels Ingredient Kgs.
    Soap 2
    Rope oil 2
    Water oil 10
    Talc 4

    - 12. Axle Grease Ingredient Kgs.
    Palm oil 7.0
    Anthracene oil 11.0
    Rosin oil 5.0
    Soap 0.5

    - 13. Transparent Grease Ingredient Kgs.
    Spindle oil 50
    Aluminium Stearate 3
    Vegetable tallow 2

    Alternately, could extra Ivory soap or stearic acid be added to thicken an oil rather than using a grease in lube? I think it is Starmetal that talked about his soap lube and he was reporting high velocities ~ not sure about hot/cold performance though.

    Anyway, just a thought about making your own grease or using soap/stearic acid and oil to make a lube without a bunch of other additives. It might even work with a synthetic oil.

    My lube has a relatively high soap content and so far I am happy with it but I have to say that I am easily pleased and I have not wrung it out in extreme temperatures or really checked thoroughly for varying group sizes/fliers from cold barrel to hot barrel. Until it fails me I am too lazy to try anything else. However, now that I have a scope on my Lee Enfield I may see errors in group size not due to old eyes.

    If you make your own grease, you have total control of what is in it. I have seen some of the old bearing greases that were clear amber and as thick as some boolit lubes. I don't know but I bet they were oil and something like stearic acid. They couldn't have had any solid fillers or additives as they were clear amber.

    Just a thought.

    Longbow
    Longbow

  18. #58
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    I have to say the willingness to share information this forum is beyond belief. As a professional lurker and a new caster, I have learned so much from all off you. Being able to do the right thing the first time sure makes things easy. Just wanted to send out a big THANK YOU to all the folks that make this forum what it is. Thanks again, Mike

  19. #59
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    gear the sticky is quite a bit less than say lucas oil additive it has tacky but not the thready high visc tack.
    more than say, a lube with lanolin,but less than regular lanolin.
    i am trying to figure out how to get some [and how much] white lith into the mix to offset the tack.
    the rounds i fired the other day didn't seem to be affected by the tackyness but it might be different in the cold.
    i'm okay with that but then the lith will be my bbl coating,fine in the cold,but a titch thin in the hot.
    so i gotta be careful here.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  20. #60
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    I went to that link, then I looked at the stuff i have. Could be very similar. This stuff is called Liquid O Ring, #155, from Oil Center Research, of Lafayette, La.
    Last edited by softpoint; 03-29-2012 at 09:12 PM.
    Cast Boolits, Where lead balloons go over....

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