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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #561
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I would hope that nobody gets a feeling that this entire discussion is about finding a magic lube that gives accuracy in all situations.
    I just would like a lube that worked well in a wide range of temperatures. I don't shoot for tiny groups so I am willing to accept a trade here.

  2. #562
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    Right on, Brad. There is no "magic elixir". If there was, we'd only need one rifle powder and one alloy for everything past 1600 FPS. All I'm trying to accomplish here is identify what factors are involved that affect accuracy in rifles so I can minimize the characteristics of lube that make those factors worse. We know temperature is a biggie, we also know that quantity of lube is important, and that viscosity and lubricity are important. I think I can control viscosity and lubricity with synthetics, and if I can do that, it might eliminate the ill effects of "too much lube". I think the "right" lube will work just as well with a bunch of deep grooves-full as with only the space in front of the gas check filled. If the lube is self-cleaning, it should purge out the same way regardless of how much is on the boolit.........Unless..........the amount of lube blowing around the boolit before obturation is achieved is so great that it coats the bore badly enough to hydroplane the boolit, then things go haywire. Here is where a little Dacron can make a huge difference, and compacting fillers make even more difference. If you use a little assistance to obturate (seal) the boolit base in the neck while the nose is getting engraved/sealing the bore and save the lube in the grooves, lube fouling/purge flyers are much less of an issue. Anyone else notice that?

    Gear

  3. #563
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    Have not noticed that. Haven't really looked for it either.

    Could this explain why some bullet designs work well in some rifles and poorly in others? Think of a properly fit Loverin style. Nose seals the bore quickly keeping lube where it belongs. This may be why this style of bullet works well in oversize bores when others may not be so good.

    I have also noticed tha the RCBS 165 SIL bullet shoptalk better for me in rifles than any other bullet I have tried. It carries very little lube but engraves lightly on the nose in most of the rifles I have shot it in. Maybe I just had the right balance of nose engraving, pressure, and alloy.

  4. #564
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    Run, it was sodium stearate from a chemical supply company. It pays to have a job with some level of access!

    I think the pure sodium stearate has an advantage over soap as we know precisely what is in it. No water, no glycerin, no salts.
    Sodium Stearate is defined chemically as a salt; i.e., a cation (Na+) bonded to an anion (I think it looks something like this: [C17H35CO2]-) from the the reaction of an acid (Stearic Acid) and a base (NaOH; i.e., Sodium Hydroxide).

    MJ

    P.S. Regarding your post #561... you may acquire from this or any other discussion whatever level of information/knowledge/bunk you desire. Personally, I'm trying to elevate my cast boolit accuracy to the next level; i.e., the one just before I start wrapping neckid alloy in a jacket.
    Last edited by Marlin Junky; 05-23-2012 at 11:42 PM.

  5. #565
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    i have had the 165 fail for me when i thought it would be a perfect fit.
    and then have the rcbs 150 fngc basically the same boolit but with a shorter nose and one more driving band shoot lights out.
    without changing alloy, lube,diameter, or the load.

    i'm just trying to get the lube to make the temp swing from cold to hot without having to make any changes to it.
    i could easily just shoot my ruger hawkeye in the winter and my 77-11 in the summer with different lubes and never notice the difference.
    i have a load and alloy i'll shoot it till it's gone.[or i am, whichever]
    then little girl can finish off whats left.

    so i am going to focus on making the best lube i can, with whatever i can get my hands on to do it with.
    [thank you to bruce]
    so far i believe that i have made the best lube i have ever used [in the two E-lubes], and i wanna try and make that a little bit better if possible.
    if i can do so with one narrow window in several guns [calibers] to start, then it can be expanded on to other avenues to see where it fails and excells.
    but i can't get there without any consistency in the testing.
    that's why i am holding the 0-6 to one load and alloy, and the 8mm to another alloy.
    untill i can get some wider temp swings on target.

  6. #566
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    I think that's correct Gear. I believe a fair amount of the time we're over lubing and fillers etc seem to correct that to an extent. I belive for the utmost accuracy even barrel length is a factor for the correct amount and/or type of lube. One lube for everything with the most accuracy ain't happin' but a lube that gives decent hunting accuracy over a wide range of temperatures and conditions is I believe.....just what that is???????....time and experimenting will tell.

  7. #567
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    From a purely technical point of view sodium stearate is a salt. Based upon that so are any other sterates or other soaps we use to make a grease. Detergents are salts also. The ionization is pretty well required to get the polar end of the molecule to exist.
    In this case we are speaking more of salts left over from the soap making process.

    Like Run I am mostly after a lube that works well in summer or winter. I hate having two lubes, two batches of ammo, two bins of lubed bullets. I just like having ammo, no season indicated.

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooter93 View Post
    I think that's correct Gear. I believe a fair amount of the time we're over lubing and fillers etc seem to correct that to an extent. I belive for the utmost accuracy even barrel length is a factor for the correct amount and/or type of lube. One lube for everything with the most accuracy ain't happin' but a lube that gives decent hunting accuracy over a wide range of temperatures and conditions is I believe.....just what that is???????....time and experimenting will tell.
    "Extreme" lube is meant to serve the same function as the Hodgdon "Extreme" rifle powders, and I titled this thread in that same spirit, a fairly generic lube that will extend hunting accuracy through temperature extremes. I think most of us in the nitty-gritty of the development process here are after exactly the same thing.

    As far as a lube providing the ultimate accuracy in a particular gun, well, we all know the lube will have to be tuned just for that purpose. I don't shoot much in organized competition, but most of those matches aren't held in sub-freezing weather anyway.

    Gear

  9. #569
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    Boolit expansion at the very base is drastically important as noticed in the BR gun specifically. Ideally it happens in the case neck enough for the duration of the boolit through the barrel at the same size. For example: the same load was/is used from day one. The case necks were shaven to make a zero clearance AFTER the round is fired. The resulting barrel was clean all the way through for as long as I wanted to shoot on a day. After the throat enlarged (enlongated, really; always about 40+K CUP) the number of shots decreased for the same accuracy. Investigation shows the fouling advances down the barrel in tune with the enlongation of the resulting freebore. Gear's observation would work in this instance, plugging up the effects of the advancing freebore with filler. This would keep fouling to a minimum, NO DOUBT. ... felix
    felix

  10. #570
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    Gear, I have shot more than a few matches in sub freezing weather. Never said I was smart! Heck, incentive had to blow snow out of the rear sight on my AR during a highpower match.

    In the winter any day that promises to get above 25 and has little to no wind is a good day to shoot. These are the days that test my lube. I also hunt in variable weather and need a lube I can trust from 0 to 70 degrees ecause we can get that sort of spread year to year for deer season.

    I am sure Run gets even more wildly variable weather in his part of the country, he has elevation to make a difference too.

  11. #571
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    Thanks, Felix, I'm just beginning to realize how important what you just said is to rifle accuracy. The sealing effect of a paper-jacketed boolit which properly fits the throat and is seated to engrave seems to have a profound effect on accuracy potential. That and lube blowout isn't an issue in the first place. Breech-seating does far more than just "guarantee" a boolit gets a straight start in the bore, it also gets the boolit into the rifling with the lube preserved in the grooves. No blowout=no excessive pre-lubing of the bore ahead of the boolit. No "hydroplaning" = better accuracy due to consistently wiped bore from shot to shot.

    I've long sought to fit my boolits as well as I can to simulate breech-seating as much as possible with fixed ammunition, now I'm starting to see the importance of achieving the seal to preserve lube in the grooves.

    Has anyone tried just lubing the forward lube groove and leaving the rest empty?

    Gear

  12. #572
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    Now that is an interesting idea. I have seen many bullets with lube in only the rear grooves, never in the front ones only. With a many grooves bullet like a Loverin style it has some real merit.

    I do think having a bullet into the grooves is a good idea. Again, my RCBS 165 SIL bullet allows this in the rifles I use it in. It is also quite accurate in those guns. Minimal lube, seats into riflling, fits bore well. Sure sounds like a recipe for sucess.

    How much of the trouble from a "winter lube" in the summer heat is from lube blowout on release from the case neck and how much was just lube left by the passage of the bullet? Is the low tep lube in the summer too soft to resist the gas blowby?

  13. #573
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    it's that viscosity issue again. [controlling it over temp swings is crucial]
    the majority of my boolits are chosen because they have only one lube groove.
    as well as the shape,and balance percentage between the nose and body.

    i have noticed in my d/w revolver with the lyman wad cutter that has 3 lube grooves [358091 airc] that lubing just the bottom groove against all of them or just two or even swapping to just the top one or just the middle produced the best accuracy.

    and when i compare the lube volume of say a 311041 with it's two lube grooves v.s the volume of lube the rcbs molds with just one groove holds, they seems quite close...

    some of my larger diameter boolits [375-45/70] that have multiple grooves get more than one of them lubed [at least right now they do]

    i have noticed that the harder less oil containing lubes seem to need more lube volume to carry out the job.
    that's where the oil control and release comes from [in my mind anyways]

    i do think that instead of lube fighting gas cutting per se, that it does seal the corners of the lands and prevents gas from entering that way.
    and that is where we truly are lubing,the lube getting on the rest of the bbl is just a byproduct and causes as many problems as it fixes.
    that is why alox and some other ingredients work and dont at the same time, what it leaves behind is collecting powder fouling,not completely burning, not sealing [wet stage flowing], or is flowing too much before it hits that critical first couple of inces of bbl,
    builds up, changes it's visc between shots,or quits flowing before the muzzle.

    that's why the ingredients and the visc are so important and its why we are doing all this.

  14. #574
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    More range testing today, 100 yards, 94 degrees, gusty winds from behind.

    First up was a 180 microwax and CRC engine assembly lube, one tablespoon per 2oz wax. This lube has fine graphite, moly, calcium sulfonate, and lithium complex in a 1200 cus oil, it's about NLGI #0. Groups were fairly pitiful, but predictable, in the 4-5" range. 30 shots produced no leading and no improvement.

    Next was Royal Purple 75W-140 gear oil and microwax, same 1 TBS per 2 oz wax. Better, but not by much. 20 shots went into 3" or so. Suffice it to say I'm officially DONE with testing any lube that doesn't contain a significant amount of metal-soap grease.

    Felix lube was next, even with a hot barrel it still did it's normal solid 1.5" 10-shot group.

    And then, for something completely different: Five shots lubed with Mobil1/micowax/finely shredded paper towel lint went into an inch. Clean barrel. I didn't figure they'd hit the target, but they did, I was truly impressed. The group was about the same elevation but 3" to the right of the other "groups" of the day, I don't know what's up with that.

    Five paper-patched 160-grainers that I was trying to get rid of went into 1.25" and printed in the same place as the wax/grease/paper lubed ones did.

    There was zero hint of a lube star with any of the lubes tried, and zero lube residue on the case mouths as sometimes happens in cooler weather, especially with the grease/wax lubes.

    I'm sure ya'll can guess what I'm going to explore more!

    Gear

  15. #575
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    All the talk about paper patching and paper fiber in lube got me thinking and I just got through talking to my FIL who worked as a printer for many years.
    Paper patching dates back to a bygone era, when barrel steel was a lot less perfect than what we have today, and it was probably a good way to do things back then. I asked FIL if there is anything in paper that would abrade or damage metal. He said there isn't much abrasive in paper these days so much but the acids in the paper play hell with the chrome and to a lesser extent the other metals in the presses, and significantly added to the maintenance costs of a printing press.
    In light of this , do we want to reconsider the idea of sending paper down our modern, polished steel or chrome lined barrels.
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  16. #576
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    Acids in paper? What acids? I thought most paper processes were alkali based these days. Makes it a pain if you want to make cyanotypes. Incompatible chemistry.

  17. #577
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    The acid pulp is what turns newspaper yellow and crumbly in the sun, and causes papers not specifically treated against the acids to break down in short order. I think most modern papers are going "acid free" because it's easier on the equipment. I wet my patches using a water/baking soda solution to break down the acidic cellulose fibers and make the patches more limber with certain papers. I figure the baking soda remains in the paper to a certain extent and protects it. I'm not worried in the least of using paper pulp in oil/wax base, any of you ever bother to check the pH of a dirty cleaning patch?

    Gear

  18. #578
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    So do we need to try the cellulose powder now? I think it would be a good thickener and won't be very hygroscopic at all. Being a fine powder it might be a pain to get mixed in and lump free but there are ways to deal with that too.
    I may need to place an order for some on Tues, it isn't very expensive in the over all realm of things.
    A thickeners that leaves no residue might be a good thing. It may actually have some ability to help remove grunge from a previous shot?
    I am thinking more and more that a bullet lube is much less a lube and much more a fluid gasket to seal the little breaks that occur between bullet and bore. There may be a bit of lubrication involved but the seal is more critical in my mind.

    I don't knowi we will ever find a better or "extreme" lune but this has opened my eyes about what makes a good lube good and what a lube does.

  19. #579
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    I honestly have no idea, it's one of those things that shouldn't have worked. I took a lube that shoots huge groups but doesn't lead (microwax, a dab of paraffin wax, and just enough ATF to soften it) and added filed fibers from a Viva paper towel and melted it together. I looked like a hairball in the saucepan. I added lube until it was saturated, plus about 10% more, and kneaded it as it cooled to keep the fibers evenly dispersed. I packed it in the grooves with my fingers like I normally do and sized them base-first to seat the checks. The paper fibers scratched the driving bands a bit, and there were a few sticking out of the lube here and there, so I didn't have much hope that they'd shoot, but they dang sure did.

    I don't know if wood flour or cellulose powder will work as well, but it would be worth a try. See Brad, the fibers I used were more like finely-chopped Dacron than sawdust, so there's a big difference in the way it would have worked. Not a thickener, but a reinforcer for the lube and Magic Eraser for the barrel. You could make the same with Carnauba Red, paper fiber, and maybe a splash of ATF.

    Since I never had any luck with psyllium fiber, flour, or talc in lube, I'm thinking less about the fine fiber fillers now and more toward the intact wood fibers. But you never know what might work until you try it.

    Gear

  20. #580
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    I wonder if dryer lint would have similar effect? This almost reminds me of "tire slime" that they sell at wal-mart. Its a liquid with fiber suspended in it and it seals very well. I guess the fiber just finds its place and works. Very interesting discovery Gear.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check