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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #541
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    Anhydrous lanolin is not anhydrous, but contains around 25 percent water. Driving water off any more than that changes lanolin to something else not even close. But, R & D work includes doing anything and everything NOT realistic to obtain something that IS realistic. Most "inventions" are based upon luck of the draw. Hopefully, we have the foresight to recognize any resulting "trash" as the cat's meow. ... felix
    felix

  2. #542
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    I experimented some with sticky yellow pine sanding dust out of the bag on my DeWalt RDA sander, it actually gels oil. It also gels melted wax, so I experimented a lot with different wax/oil lubes I had already made by just melting them and adding the wood dust. When it gets over 210F it foams and boils off the water, it's easy to tell when it's done, suddenly the foaming stops. I know the wood flour is usually hardwood and has no sap or rosin like this yellow pine stuff that I used does, so that would probably be better.

    I don't know if this wood/wax lube will work or not if some of the lube gets blown out of the groove upon launch. If some gets blown out ahead of the boolit as typically happens and the boolit runs over it, I don't know if the wood component would be a good thing. Might work like the bentone lube did, shredding lead off of the boolit. My concept for the wood flour was a much coarser grind, more like a filler than a gellant, so I sifted some sawdust I had and tried different grades with wax. It all seems to work as far as getting in the groove, I just don't know how it will do in the gun.

    The next thing I tried was shredded newspaper fibers (rolled up tight and shredded with a file), this seems to work pretty well, too with the Microwax and a little oil makes a nice, smooth putty that's easy to pack in the boolit grooves by hand.

    I feel safe shooting the newspaper, but not my abrasive-ridden sanding dust, so I'll put that on the testing schedule and if it works, I might try the wood flour.

    Gear

  3. #543
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felix View Post
    Anhydrous lanolin is not anhydrous, but contains around 25 percent water.
    The percent of water depends on the grade. Technical is in the single digits. The junk one buys from the earth mothers is probably 25% water; however if one purchases Technical grade A-Lanolin from a chemical company it should be 3% or less water.

    MJ

  4. #544
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    After it goes into the lube, water content's a moot point anyway.

    Gear

  5. #545
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    MJ, Vybar 103 melts at a little over 200F and goes right into the grease at about 220F. It makes the grease set up really firm, but you can knead it into a putty if you don't use too much Vybar. If you get the amount just perfect, to a half-percent or so, it will make the grease firm but not sticky after kneading. I'm not sure how it would do in a lube-sizer if you melted and poured it in, but I'm sure some heat would need to be applied to get it to flow again after it cooled in a still state. My lube notes contain over a hundred recipe ideas, over 70 of them have been tried, and if I remember right I'm up to around 30 that I've tested, so I admit the Vybar/grease thing got overlooked. My only real concern with it was whether or not the Vybar would build up a plastic film in the barrel, which is why I did end up shooting some of it in the .35, but I don't think it built up as far as I could tell. It did melt and jettison well when shot, I still have the paper from the point-blank tests somewhere.

    Gear
    How was the accuracy? I'm not sure exactly, but I understand the recommended amount of Vybar to a pound or so of paraffin is in the fraction-of-a-teaspoon range. Regarding a lube created with a combination of Li-Grease/Microwax/Vybar, perhaps a shot of liquid wax (jojoba oil) can be added to soften the lube.

    MJ

  6. #546
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    After it goes into the lube, water content's a moot point anyway.

    Gear
    Right, buy why pay for 25% water?

    MJ

  7. #547
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    mj:
    i'd mix the vybar and grease first, then let it rest.
    you can adjust from there with more grease or with the wax.

    i haven't made any lith stearate lube just yet
    but once i do, and if it comes out like the other E-lubes have been, i'll get you some of it to play with.

  8. #548
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Wood fiber absorbs oil and grease fantastically, dad used it to clean up the garage floor. It is like the kitty litter clay. I do think it would just be a carrier for the lube and a cleaner like COW, no 'linked' fibers to give a strong coating. Same with shredded newsprint. If you could 'pulp' the paper in a lube solution & roll (or dip) that onto a CB for drying and sizing, you might get the PP strength. I haven't had any success with it yet. It's a jacket that needs tensile strength, ductility and cut resistance. Not meaning to hijack (don't say hi to your friend Jack at the airport) just tried it and it didn't give me good results.

  9. #549
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    mj:
    i'd mix the vybar and grease first, then let it rest.
    you can adjust from there with more grease or with the wax.

    i haven't made any lith stearate lube just yet
    but once i do, and if it comes out like the other E-lubes have been, i'll get you some of it to play with.
    R5R,

    Thank you!

    MJ

  10. #550
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    Made some "soap" lune after discussing the recipe with Gear. Was easy to make using sodium stearate powder rather than Ivory soap. Not sure if the "other" stuff in the bar soap matters or not.
    808 gr of beeswax
    808 gr sodium stearate
    836 gr Vaseline
    1 tablespoonful of castor oil

    I was used to lube some Mihec 359640 bullets which were then shot at 100 yards in my Marlin 1894c. I put a scope on the rifle for this testing, that required a few rounds to get sighted in.
    Load was 13.5 gr of WC820, a load that shoots quite well. I normally lube these bullets with MMl which has served me well and gives no leading.

    I got a 2.5 inch group at 100 yards. For a day with 20 mph winds I didn't feel this was too bad. I am not a great bench shooter so a better day and better shooter would probably shrink this some.

    No leading at all. A couple dry patches showed a bore with no visible leading. A slight antimony was was visible at the muzzle. Te ally was 18 pounds lead pipe with 2 pounds monotype. This gives an alloy that I like for general shooting. The bullets were water dropped and had aged for a few months.

    Tis lube is going to need more testing to see how it really handle things. I need to get in the garage and cast a few bullets so I can try it in a few different rifles.

    Right now, is shows some promise. I had hand lubed the bullets I shot today, don't know how this will do in a sizer yet. May try itis the Star. If I have any troubles with I not staying in the grooves I may add a little lanolin.

    Best part of the day was shooting with my daughter and the fact we brought home 27.4 pounds of fresh range scrap. My goal for the year is to always bring home more lead than I left with. We have almost filled a 5 gallon bucket this year! I am on track to bring home around 400 pounds of range scrap.

    Brad
    Last edited by btroj; 05-23-2012 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Typo

  11. #551
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    Thanks for the report, Brad, I'm glad that worked for you. After discussing it a bit more with Joe I think I suggested too much Vaseline, he probably meant about half as much as you used. The castor oil rate is two "heaping" tablespoons per just over a half-gallon of lube. You may find that the lube gets softer and more silky after some time sitting, or at least the stuff I made with the Ivory did. That might be a function of the glycols and salt in the soap sucking up moisture, though.

    Gear

  12. #552
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    That might be a function of the glycols and salt in the soap sucking up moisture, though.

    Gear
    Yeah, I thought we were going to shy away from hygroscopic ingredients. I wouldn't want my "Ultimate Boolit Lube's" properties varying with the weather/humidity.

    MJ

  13. #553
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    i'm staying away from those ingredients. as much as i can
    the soap lube showed some very good properties that needed exploring.
    the stearate brad refers to i think was actually stearic acid.

    the ivory soap was the glycol/salt issue. [at least in the amounts used]
    i was able to sweat glycol ? out of ivory soap [when i was mixing it with nu-finish and heating it] but i don't think it would quite pull it all out without a couple of re heatings.

    brads recipe could be modified quite easily however..
    gonna head over to the second hand store for a pan here soon.
    dawns graduation and ceremonies,and family stuff this week is killing me.

  14. #554
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    Run, it was sodium stearate from a chemical supply company. It pays to have a job with some level of access!

    I think the pure sodium stearate has an advantage over soap as we know precisely what is in it. No water, no glycerin, no salts. It mixed with the Vaseline quite easily, took less than a minute of mixing to have all the stearate mixed into the Vaseline.

    The lube is different from anythig I have used. It is pretty dry feeling but is easy to manipulate like putty. It was quite easy to hand lube with.

    I plan to keep an eye ont he lube to see if it "bleeds" oil over time. I also need to do a better accuracy test and a test to see ow it handles longer strings with a hot barrel.

  15. #555
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    The only way I know to remove glycerine from soap is to boil it in salt water and pour the liquid soap off of the brine. The glycerine will go into the water, but some trace of salt is going to remain in the soap. Using the SS instead eliminates all those issues.

    Stearic acid is not one of my favorite ingredients. Unless it's reacted with sodium hydroxide or any other similar metal hydoxide compound (OH- compounds) to form a metal stearate and glycerin, it will have a low pH. Sodium stearate has caused rusted bores, green case necks, and corroded gas checks over a period of time in my experience.

    I'm not really sure how much it matters what metal soap we use, but with certain "types" of lube a large percentage of heavy grease seems to work very well. I'm partial to the lithium soap greases at the moment, but the relative ease of getting SS makes sodium soap more attractive to the DIY lube cook. The Lithium thickeners also have the annoying tendency to be very thixotropic, sodium grease not as much, but sodium grease isn't very water-resistant. So there's a trade off. See why I like the idea of a Tri-Stearate grease with sodium, magnesium, and lithium greases? A person could take store-bought, simple lithium stearate grease and thicken it to block consistency with Mg and Na stearates. I have a link to a 1942 Patent where this was done, and the proportions of the thickeners are listed to make a grease that withstands "working" without losing viscosity.


    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 05-23-2012 at 07:07 PM.

  16. #556
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    Is a thixotric lube really a bad thing? Seems to me it would flow when put under some pressure like in a lubrsizer but would thicken up when stored. The sheer force of firing should allow it to flow again, if time allows.

  17. #557
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    Really, I don't know if that would be bad or not, but here's my thinking: If the lube turns to goose poop before the boolit engraves, it could be an issue. If one works up a lube and load with the thixotropic properties in mind, and uses them to his advantage, what happens when the temperature drops 60 degrees? The pressure-softening process might be different. A lube that softens predictable with temperature changes alone, by the mechanism of a high VI plasticizing oil, that should be enough. If both the oil and the thickener are affected greatly by heat and pressure, the lube will soften at "twice" the rate. Perhaps good, perhaps not. I'm seeing some antimony wash only in the last few inches of the barrel with some of my high-Li-thickener lubes (22" bbl, .30 cal, 1,950-ish FPS, long strings on warm days). IOW, I think the thickener is breaking down too quickly under pressure.

    Gear

  18. #558
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    I can see your point. In our case the lube is actually breaking down, or thinning, to a point where it is no longer effective as a lube. This may be the proverbial "running out of lube"!
    A lube really needs to have a good plastic phase that is neither too hard nor too thin for optimum sealing properties.
    I will interested to see how the lube I made flows thru a sizer.

  19. #559
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    I agree, Brad. Now let me dump THIS load of bricks on everyone:

    I've found that when shooting beyond the normal velocities for cast boolits, the lube has to be tweaked every couple hundred FPS for the best results. Often the alloy and lube must be adjusted together. This is what got me into heat-treating low-antimony alloys and messing with Felix lube in earnest. At higher velocities, north of 2K fps, the lubes with a little more "slick" seem to do better, but it's a tightrope balance.

    Then there's bore condition. Bore condition isn't just lube residue and temperature, there's POWDER fouling to deal with. We haven't discussed this much on this thread other than to say "prefouled" or a dirty, seasoned bore is or isn't being used for that first critical shot. If your powder leaves a little black soot, the next boolit gets to run over that or squeegee it out if it has a scraper band with blank groove in front of it. I think one of the secrets to why paper-patched boolits can be so accurate at such high velocity has to do with managing the fouling. Speed Green is like bore detergent, it seems to keep the powder fouling soft and light, allowing it to be purged better each shot, or so I presume based on comparative scrutiny of cleaning patches. But if your rifle does better with a little fouling buildup as many of mine do, a switch to Speed Green can blow the groups. If your fouling accumulates with the lube you use, it can cure large groups. I suspect, but haven't tested to see, that "cleaning" lubes work better in smoother bores.

    There's more to this, including groove width and depth, barrel harmonics, yada yada yada, better left to another thread. I just wanted to mention it so nobody loses sight of the "big picture" here while we obsess over lube function and formulas.

    Gear

  20. #560
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    remember we need the lube to go that other direction also.
    we about have to run on the edge in the heat and the cold.
    i have shot the E-yellow below 32 already and up to 80*.
    that is the one with beeswax and alum stearate added to the white lith grease.

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