"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

the worst case would be a patch with the pao at the start of a very cold day.
or after a long time of non use.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, it isn't the cold ammo that is always a problem, it is a cold barrel.
I think all lunes leave a film in the bore and with some lines that film needs to be warmed up by a few rounds in the cold.
I don't know if a clean, or cleaner, barrel would help reduce first shot flyers or not.

I would not use Carnuba Red in my Marlin 32-20 for squirrel hunting loads. Most shots would be from a cold, fouled barrel. That season tends to be under 40 degrees. With CR that gun tends to throw the first couple shots over an inch out at 50 yards. That is a big enough error to lead to misses.

BAC also works much better in my '06 when things are warmed up; i.e., sometimes taking up to 15-20 shots before settling down to 1MOA and this while starting with a fouled barrel. Two days ago ambient hit near 90F during my range session and my hot barrel actually self-cleaned at about round 16-18 and went from shooting 2MOA to < 1MOA (with a significant center-of-group shift). Unfortunately I ran out of ammo and sure would have liked to see how long I could keep up the one hole accuracy.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Alox strikes again.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Alox strikes again.

Gear

I don't think I have a single lube in stock w/o at least some Alox in it.

Looks like I get to start all over...

BTW, would someone please define PAO... would Mobil-1 5W-30W qualify?

Thanks,
MJ

[geargnasher]

That's affirm on the Mobil 1 oils. That lineup is one of the few remaining true synthetics out there since the courts determined that some of the modern refining techniques make some conventional oils meet similar API specs as the true synthecs. Merely an advertising loophole, API doesn't really have a formulation requirement for the different "group" classification of lubricating oils, only performance specs they must meet. Some conventionals now meet the specs previously only attainable with PAO (poly alpha olefin)base oil stocks, but they'll never be as good under extreme or extended use.

Gear

Gear

[runfiverun]

they have that little circle seal on them with the api in it.
stuff like amsoil don't meet that certification because it has zddp as an ingredient so it's disqualified even though it's a superior oil.
there are some others that don't have it because they are inferior.
it's another one of those things where the government is reall helping us out.
because even though the zddp extends engine life, it shortens catyletic converter life.
so i guess the entire vehicle now breaks down at the same time?

[bruce381]

Was advertizing council or federal trade commision that allowed "hydrocracked and hydro finished" GPIII oils to meet "synthetic" name anyway API does have "specs" that oil have to meet to be Grouped from GP1 to GP5

GPI=solvent refined
GPII=Hydro cracked and hydro finished
GPIII=hydro cracked and hydrofinished less aromatics than GPII (can be called syns)

GPIV=PAO and GTL
GPV=other oils like esters, naps.

API has a better list than this google fo it.

Anyway Motor oils are reducing ZDDP (phos is the problem not the zinc) cause it is VOLITLE and goes down the pipe and kills the CAT. Newer less volitle additives are replacing the ZDDP with as good or better engine perfromance in life and wear rates.

Newer oils have longer drian interval, lower wear rates and less sludge and varnish build up than older styles.

Even NON syn oils in the new API SN catigory will perform as older syns did and in fact GPIII syn base oil is used in most all quailty PCMO's now days to meet cold end viscosity and VOLITILITY requirements that oldder base oils can not.

Basicly the divide or gap from full syns like Mobil 1 to regular oils is and has shrunk due to better additves and higher quality base oils that HAVE to be used to pass all the newer API requirments.

Where before a Mineral PCMO needed a oil change at 3-5K now thay can go 10-15K minimium. With a full PAO syn 25K.

Anyway change your oil at correct intervals and be happy.

[geargnasher]

The kicker for all these Group-III conventional oils being able to reside in the same class as some true syns is the drain interval. No matter how good, conventional oils don't have the molecular uniformity or the high VI that the PAOs do, so they still need the polymer additives to give them the high-temp thickness and in some cases need pour-point additives as well. These additives get wiped out by repeated shearing forces, particularly in flat-tappet camshaft engines, and break down, causing sludge and viscosity breakdown over time. The PAOs don't need any of that fancy stuff to make them work, their high VIs are often good enough to qualify as a multigrade oil by their nature.

Boolit lube has a very short life, so I don't know how much the high-temp viscosity modifiers in conventional engine oil really matters for the lube, but pour point and high VI matter a lot to me when trying to make a wax/grease lube have consistent pliability and ability to dispense oil in a variety of temperature conditions. This is why I've been hammering on the synthetic thing since the beginning.

Gear

[40Super]

I believe AmsOil is another one that is in the same "true full" synthetic oil as Mobil 1( in Group V ?). I always wished I'd saved that write-up (about 7years ago)on all the oils and their class designation, it keeps coming up in various areas.


side note =I had always run Mobil 1 and at 8500miles sent in a sample for analisis, it came back to being 96%protection yet with only small %'s of water, particulates, nitro's,and aluminum particles(?). This came out of a newer 5.4L aluminum engine.

[geargnasher]

More concocting after getting new stuff from Bruce, where to begin!

Last night I got way deep into making lithium grease. Looked up and it was 4am and boy am I in the doghouse now! Anyway, the lith 12-hydroxy stuff is AWESOME! Just get it hot and it melts right in, instant gel when cooling. I didn't have such good luck with the straight lith stearate, it wants to precipitate bunches of little lumps beyond a certain concentration regardless of what I mixed it with.

So I tried the UCON oil, lith 12, a dash of sulfur oil (YUK!), and made some of the slickest, smoothest grease I've ever seen. Remelted and added thickener until it cooled to a firm consistency, today it's not even sticky. PAG oil makes a really slick grease. One problem though, for some reason, even the UCON stuff won't blend with melted microwax. What's up with that? I discovered this after remelting some of the grease and adding microwax, it seemed brittle and "wet" like the wax didn't take the grease well, so I mixed just the oil and melted wax and they had a clean separation line. I figured it would blend with most anything, but for some reason it's a no-go with this high-temp microwax.

This got me to thinkng I'd better check that beforehand with anything I mix with this wax, so I tried the PAO 100, it won't blend with the melted wax either. So I tried conventional oil and it blends just fine, as does the soft microwax sample. Hmmmph. If oil won't mix with the wax, no point trying to make grease with the oil and mix it with wax, either. Just for fun I added Li stearate to the melted hard microwax/soft microwax mix to make a thickened wax rather than thickened oil, it came out sort of like latex caulk: Not very slick, and wouldn't "feather" to a smooth edge when smeared.

I made all sorts of mixes with the thickeners, including my primary objective of thickening existing #2 grease, which is 100% success!!! By adding Li 12 to both conventional and synthetic Li 12 #2 greases and heating them to the drop point I was able to make brick grease out of them no problem, so objective met there for sure.

There's something to the Mobil 1 grease. Although it's difficult to tell since the thickener is in it already, it seems to blend fine with the microwax I'm using, unlike any other PAO oil I've tried so far. Weird. Either I'm mistaken, or there are other additives in there that help the grease blend with conventional oils. I know the microwax isn't exactly an oil, but it's still hydrocarbons, right? The M1 must be formulated to be compatible with conventional greases so it can be used without complete purging and not cause compatibility issues with other lithium complex greases. In any event, it takes the wax well, and takes the pre-made Li 12 powder well too. I also discovered that the microwax I have can be heated enough to completely melt the powder into a clear liquid without burning or even smoking. This wax is TOUGH. Even the UCON oil was smoking and starting to smell a bit before the gellant melted completely, I never thought the wax could handle that sort of heat but it did it in stride. I made a few batches by melting the wax, melting the gellant, cooling the mix to around 250F and then adding various oils to keep from smoking them.

Other things I experimented with were the HTO, lard oil, sulfur oil, neatsfoot, Breox 1000 oil, soft microwax, etc. In the end, I keep coming back to the Mobil 1 grease and microwax, it's one of the few ways I've been able to make synthetic oil and beeswax or microwax go together, and it has almost the right consistency if the grease is thickened to about a #5 or so and mixed with 40% wax by weight.

Anyway, I'm still missing one small ingredient in the M1/Li 12/microwax 180 mix: Something to make it more pliable. The soft microwax helps, but lowers the melt point and adds too much stickiness. Vaseline just makes it sticky with brittle, hard chunks in it when kneaded. I think lanolin, of all things, is what's needed here, but I haven't tried that yet. I'm letting all of these concoctions sit for a while to evalute their consistency more. Looks like the PAO 100/microwax blend separated almost completely upon cooling, and the wax layer on top is sweating beads of oil. Something didn't go right with the UCON/Microwax/HTO/Lard oil/Sulfur oil blend, prolly the UCON and the wax going their separate ways.

I also experimented with some of the lithium 12 brick grease I have and the hard microwax, it makes a pretty decent concoction, but I think it really needs some more slickum, like a small dose of lard oil/neatsfoot/sulfur to round it out nicely. Might try that, too, even though it's not a synthetic, it might still work fine in the cold, especially with the neatsfoot.

Off to go fool with this some more, looks like the weather's going to be good tomorrow so I'm going to go load a bunch of stuff up to shoot. Bench time for a few of these concoctions is long overdue.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i wonder with the micro wax if you need to not melt it fully.
you might have to keep the pao in suspension with agitation as it [the wax] reforms its small pores when cooling.
micro-wax is called that because of the size of the holes [pores] in the wax they are much smaller than b-wax has.
so it can't carry as much oil.

[40Super]

Or an additive to reduce droplet sizes to "fit " into the pores. Like "Water Wetter" does for engine coolant to increase surface contact.

[Marlin Junky]

i wonder with the micro wax if you need to not melt it fully.
you might have to keep the pao in suspension with agitation as it [the wax] reforms its small pores when cooling.
micro-wax is called that because of the size of the holes [pores] in the wax they are much smaller than b-wax has.
so it can't carry as much oil.

That's not my understanding of Mircocrystalline wax. The pores may be smaller, but the wax it is supposed to be able to "absorb" more oil than beeswax.

Gear, you are talking about BW-431, correct? If you need anhydrous lanolin for your experiments, PM me... I should have about 10 pounds in my refrigerator; although, I think you'd be better off using jojoba oil as a softener.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Beeswax IS a microwax, just a natual one with a totally different chemical makeup.

It isn't the pores. The problem is that, when melted, the molecules of the wax are too big to mix with the molecules of the PAO, there's just no room for them, and the PAO won't split up enough to "go in" the micro structure of the wax. Now other PAOs work fine, like full-syn auto tranny fluid and whatever's in Mobil 1 grease. Mobil 1 engine oil also goes into the wax just fine.

There is no "sorta melted" point with this microwax, it goes from solid to liquid with no real "mush" phase, so if an additive won't go in solution, you're going to have trouble forcing it to mix.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

There is no "sorta melted" point with this microwax, it goes from solid to liquid with no real "mush" phase, so if an additive won't go in solution, you're going to have trouble forcing it to mix.

Gear

So is your goal to find a lube base that will always turn to a liquid when the pressure from the charge is applied... and if so, how much pressure? Looks like you may be stuck with more than one lube depending on the pressure range of your various loads.

MJ

[bruce381]

welcome to lube making 101, solubility of oils and additves is about the first thing to learn, with exsperience and reading the data of additve and oils aswell as making a "lab" blend you will find what you need.

Grease is somewhat easier in that once it gels it will generally stay that way oils will and can seperate weeks after you think you have a stable blend, freeze thaw cycles work there to seperate the bad ones.

Wax will need a more solventy base oil to disolve, best would be the OLD napthenic mineral oils used in the OLD R-22 refrigerant HAVC car systems. or some of the new esters. Plasicizers to change a grease FEEL can be lot of things.

LOL wait till I send you some Olephin co ploymer (OCP) crumbles used to disolve in base oils to make the oil HIGH VI think of the old STP additve it was a few percent wt of a polymer with ZDDP remember how thick like honey that was with only 3-5% polymer in base oil.

Normal lith 12 sterate grease will be made with GP1 solvent exstracted mineral oil or if a PAO will have 10-15% of a Phallate or other ester to make the soap and PAO solublie to each other.

Kinda like making real HOT jello huh?

[bruce381]

""LOL wait till I send you some Olephin co ploymer (OCP) crumbles used to disolve in base oils to make the oil HIGH VI think of the old STP additve it was a few percent wt of a polymer with ZDDP remember how thick like honey that was with only 3-5% polymer in base oil.""

Thats is a good idea it may give you the tack and VI bump you want, Ill send some monday

[runfiverun]

remember that post i made about the different metals.
that was an issue they had there, they had to move some of the molecules apart to allow the others in then everything re-linked but was allowed the ability to slide across each other better because of the new addition.
you need a tie-in a triplesec as it were.

[geargnasher]

Bruce, I think Vybar does that. It is used to help scented ester oils bind to paraffin wax and also to harden the wax. Only a few percent makes a dramatic difference in hardness, like 2-3%, any more and the wax becomes hard as a rock. Vybar is supposed to be some sort of polymer, I'm thinking something like polyethelyne.

I could go on for pages with a range report from 100 rounds downrange today, but I'll just post the "expurgated version".

Felix lube is still just about the best in the heat, and with a barrel so hot that it literally sizzled spit at one point.

All three different varieties of Mobil 1 and microwax worked very well, almost as well as Felix lube, it might be a wash, but no conclusions on the cold-barrel flyers yet. The Lithium 12 thickener did the trick, so I'm calling the micro-lithi lubes the best ones I've made yet, needs more tweaking though.

I went off in left field with a variety of strictly wax/oil lubes, including micro-speed-green, which didn't lead but was a DISMAL failure in the accuracy department, as well as other blends of microwax, shaping wax, syn ATF, and one with some of the UCON oil. The words for the day were "too freakin' slick!!". I actually broke out the chrono to see why groups with just wax/oil were shooting a full 2" higher at 100 yards, found out 80 fps was the reason. But 6" round, randomly dispersed groups were the result. I think that going up into 2050 fps territory did it, the groups have always opened up a little bit much above 2K fps with this combination, although never THAT much. Perhaps dropping the powder charge a couple of grains will bring the groups back, this stuff is clean and slick. I was filling all three grooves on the boolit with every test, trying to see if I could get over the "too much lube" thing and not have to worry about only lubing one or two grooves, but I either need to cut the oil by about 50% or more or stick with wax/grease lubes.

So, the hard microwax is looking good. The fancy oils, not so much except when tempered with metal soaps, then things are looking much better. There needs to be a "nonmelting" component of the lube, and the lithium thickeners do that well. More confirmation of what we already know, too much slickum makes big patterns downrange, especially in the heat with a hot barrel. Felix lube still works well. Didn't test Joe's lube today, still can't seem to get the recipe dialed in just right. Nothing leaded except for a faint haze on the land trailing edge, YEAH!

Gear

[geargnasher]

remember that post i made about the different metals.
that was an issue they had there, they had to move some of the molecules apart to allow the others in then everything re-linked but was allowed the ability to slide across each other better because of the new addition.
you need a tie-in a triplesec as it were.

One of the many reasons I like fooling with pre-engineered greases, all that's figured in already and the stuff you need is already there: pH, anti-oxidants for the oil, all the little things to tie it together into a stable product. Just modify it with compatible stuff to get it to do what you want.

40% 180F microwax, 50% Mobil 1, and 10% extra gellant did really well. Also, 40% wax and 60% of the reduced-oil Mobil 1 did the same. Adding paraffin, not so good, and adding a little soft microwax didn't do well either, but the barrel was scorching-hot when I tried that.

Gear