"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

we are kinda past the current known lube stage now.
with the modified greases at 60% and the carriers at 40% with the hto binding wax.
my thinking is that if the harder waxes will hold in small amounts then a softer one at slightly higher amounts should do the same, and could then be finally modified with the harder wax [@ 10%] to get the correct final visc.
really flipping the mix, using the wax [carrier] to modify the lube.
and the soft wax as the binder,and as a lube ingredient.
but i gotta start somewhere.

[geargnasher]

So far in this one rifle and load, using a traditional and proven mix of lithium grease and various waxes I've pinned the wax percentage at needing to be a minimum of 25% and a maximum of around 60% depending on the grease used.

Previously I explored the minimums here, trying to minimize the "finicky-ness" of waxes and making up for it with thicker grease alone, but it just doesn't do the trick. Accuracy and lubrication are compromised below 25% wax using beeswax and mixes of beeswax, shaping wax, and carnauba wax in varying proportions.

I think I have the grease consistency down about right, anytime it has enough oil content to still be plastic (not rubbery and springy), yet thick enough to be like cold peanut butter or room temperature cream cheese (about NLGI #4-5 I believe, #6 is starting to get springy like warm muenster cheese), it makes a good, firm lube that will stay in the grooves with just about any common wax in a 40-50% ratio of grease to wax.

Really doping out traditional Lithi-Bee with synthetics and higher melt-point waxes looks to be pretty promising. Like I've said before, we may not have learned much, but we are learning what doesn't work so well.

Starmetal's lube continues to perplex me, I was unable to duplicate it's properties or performance by following the approximate recipe he gave me, but the stuff he made was among the very best lubes I've tried. Basically, it's an extremely high-content sodium soap grease mixed with somewhere around 40% wax. I consider the soap grease components to be the heavy petrolatum tempered with a lesser percentage of castor oil. Once again, the winning combo seems to be just under half wax, and the remainder a grease with extraordinarily high thickener content and modifying oils for the right consistency, glide, and tack. Somewhere in this range of thickener/oil/wax percentage there's bound to be a good balance point of ingredients and ingredient properties that will give us the compromise we seek.

Gear

[bruce381]

gear a bottle of 15%wt lith sterate and Ucon OSP-32 on the way like a 4 grade grease

[runfiverun]

the 40-60% wax range is holding true for me too,
depending on the grease i start with and the wax used.
now a plant wax seems a different thing altogether [just a whiff of carnuba and things change quickly]

[runfiverun]

recieved box today.
thank you.

that bottle of pao oil has me thinking now.
since the heat has to be high anyways i am wondering about adding some [2-3%] mineral oil to the mix.
then the stearate.[5-7%]
and then the parrafin wax.
all at the 225-c temp. and trying for the 60-40 ratio right off.




gear you know joe worked in the lab in a refinery.
the cracking of the parrafin mentioned in the other [mica] thread got me thinking about that.
parrafin being a natural hydrocarbon by product [it will plug up a well]
i recall him mentioning wondering about using straight ivory at one time.
you might not be putting enough heat to the mix.
even though using b-wax you might have to put the heat to it.

[geargnasher]

Joe used straight Irish Spring to pretty good effect in the past, and his professional field of expertise was refining waxes (I assume de-oiling and hydrotreating/hydrocracking was part of that). He's gone over his soap lube again with me and clarified that he melted the beeswax first, then added powdered, dehydrated Ivory soap and brought the temp up until it melted in, then cooled it some and added the rest of the ingredients. The only way I was able to make it was to use the petrolatum to melt the wax since petrolatum can take the heat (450F minimum) and the beeswax simply turns dark brown (burn point of 300F). I have no trouble getting the powdered, dry Ivory to melt to a clear liquid with the petrolatum, so I'm sure they're making a good sodium soap together, and I add the beeswax and castor oil in at temps about as high as they can stand without burning, so I don't know what more could be done to hook all the various branched alkanes, acids, and other hydrocarbon chains together.

I'm wondering about paraffin, that stuff never has appealed to me as a lube ingredient because it's so brittle and has a terrible VI. It IS very slick, and might have a place as a component, but as the primary wax I doubt it would work well. Microwaxes have proven their mettle over and over again, so you might consider that red Magma lube again. I also doubt you'll be able to get paraffin to take 225C for long enough to melt the stearates, hope you have a good cover handy for your lube pot if you try it!

Gear

[bruce381]

run the PAO needs some co solvent for the lith grease to full disolve maybe 20-30% mineral oil. I have more of thease samples if needed.

[geargnasher]

Bruce, I'm assuming the lard oil/neatsfoot/sulfur oil would also blend in once the mineral oil is mixed with this new PAO? Also assuming the HTO would work too, if needed?

Gear

[runfiverun]

hmmm... a pao/microwax... felix lube??
50-50 with mineral oil held high temp,then lith stearated [instead of sodium stearate]
drop the temp to around 250-F and blend the micro-wax.
using the extra mineral oil as a plasticizer to keep things soft and flexible.
i would have to change up the wax % i think.

does this sound more correct?
or right?

[robroy]

Gear? have you tried to use the oil soaked paper from your osmosis experiment? Might be hard to seperate from the gypsum. Yeah I know the discussion has moved on from cellulose.

[bruce381]

Bruce, I'm assuming the lard oil/neatsfoot/sulfur oil would also blend in once the mineral oil is mixed with this new PAO? Also assuming the HTO would work too, if needed?

Gear

yeah, PAO is not very solventy as such some addtives and in this case lith soaps may not fully dissolve. Normally fatty orils and ester will do fine.
as I said when making a grease if you stir as the oil/soaps cools and the gel form you will get a smother grease than if it just cools un touched.

Try the Lith soap/ Ucon PAG i sent add in 1-2% sulfur ester and shoot it, let us know.

[geargnasher]

Bruce, I noticed that about PAOs, something about the molecules being so tight and uniform they won't break up and let other, odd-shaped molecules blend in very easily, like trying to stamp an armload of baseballs into dry sand with your foot. What additive type is used to get PAO/conventional oils to blend together in blended-base engine oils? I read about it somewhere but can't remember, maybe it is the POE oils that help syn/conventionals mix.

R5R, Felix lube is a sodium-soap #1-ish-grade grease made with two separate base oils and sodium stearate which is then added to a natural microwax and modified with a softer microwax, chemically speaking. If you've ever cooked the castor and mineral oils with the soap until all was nicely dissolved and then allowed it to cool, you'd notice you have a substance that gels to about the consistency of vaseline at room temp. That's nothing more than sodium stearate grease. Add it to the beeswax and you have sodi-bee. Make it more flexible and tacky with the addition of lanolin (wax) and, as Mike Rowe would say, "there ya go!".

Most of the conventional lube formulas out there seem to fall into two classes: Wax/oil/modifiers, or wax/soap grease/modifiers. When you break it down and look at it that way, it's a little easier to classify them and sort out what's working and what's not with certain formulas.

Original NRA lube: Beeswax/paraffin wax/vaseline. Natural microwax, paraffin wax, heavy paraffinic oil.
NRA 50/50 lube: Beeswax/Alox 2138F. Natural microwax, heavy petroleum distillates, calcium stearate (prolly Mg stearate, too), petroleum microwax.
Felix Lube: Bwax, paraffin oil, castor oil, sodium stearate, lanolin. Pretty self explanatory.
Glen's lube: Bwax, lithium soap grease, moly disulfide + whatever antioxidants etc. in the grease.
MML: Bwax, BW-430, lithium grease. Two microwaxes, lithium soap, and oil + whatever else is in the grease.
Speed Green: Bwax, low-viscosity PAO + additives, carnauba wax. Natual microwax, synthetic oil,
and hard natural macrowax.
VooDoo lube: Lithium complex/PAO-based grease, carnauba wax, sulfur/ZDDP additive in petroleum base (I'm guessing), and some sort of probably metallic anti-seize additive.
And on and on......

It seems pretty simple to me now, looking back on all of this, that subbing a high-temp microwax for the common beeswax and using a high-VI PAO-based lithium grease is pretty much a no-brainer for extending the operating range of known-good lube formulas, and using higher concentrations of grease thickeners give the lube flexibility and more load-carrying ability without the drawback of excess oil content. We'll probably still need some small amounts of other stuff to get it "just right", but once we get a basic formula going here, something we can wring out really well and get others to test too, we'll know more.

Gear

[bruce381]

""What additive type is used to get PAO/conventional oils to blend together in blended-base engine oils? I read about it somewhere but can't remember, maybe it is the POE oils that help syn/conventionals mix""

Esters, alkalyted napthenes, alkyl bezines etc high aromatic oils like GPI base oils like Pale Oils work well to solubilze PAO systems esters 5-7% pale oils or GPI oils maybe 10-20% have to adjust. If whatver you are adding to the PAO is cloudy then you need somthing to help out. Most oil blend if cloudy when made will seperate overnight.
Sorry for spelling Not my strong suite.

agin try the Ucon OSP-32/lith grease i sent to you with a few percent sulfur ester.

[geargnasher]

Will do, Bruce, many thanks once again.

Gear

[runfiverun]

that's when things kicked in for me and become quite a bit clearer too was when i thought about the proportions.
and then the felix popped into my head.
because of the similarities.
and then it clicked, a synthetic felix.
i have been able to break things down, but the pao's and pag's and soaps is what really puts things into perspective.
the E-purple is right in there a re-make with the lith stearate would be the next step and a big clean up of the ingredients.
the lube bruce suggests would be the next logical step after that for a pure purpose built lube.
we can see what it's going to be just from the ingredients.

i would follow my procedure with the heat and make the grease, then mix the grease and wax by weight with another [lower temp] heated blending.
either way is going to give pretty much the same outcome.

[geargnasher]

If I wanted to make synthetic Felix lube, I'd try this: Make a sodium stearate grease with 5W30 Mobil 1 engine oil at 25% thickener/oil ratio, add that grease to hard microwax at a 25-30% grease/wax ratio, and add about 5-7% lanolin/vaseline mix.

Gear

[runfiverun]

remember the oil control i talked about in the p.m.
and the "wetting" in the earlier post.
well that's the what and the how.
the who is the waxes/greases.
and the when is controlled by the friction-heat and initial visc of the lube.

[geargnasher]

remember the oil control i talked about in the p.m.
and the "wetting" in the earlier post.
well that's the what and the how.
the who is the waxes/greases.
and the when is controlled by the friction-heat and initial visc of the lube.

As Emeril would say, BAM!

I do believe that's it. With the right kind and proportion of wax, oil, and gellant, we should be able to overcome the temp limits of previous formulas.

Aside from the heavy sodium soap greases Joe has messed with, I can't think of a single instance where anyone has thought to use highly-gelled grease with microwax (beeswax or petro) to overcome the wetting vs. friction-heat issues with #2 grease. That might have been the limiting factor with lithi-bee all this time.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

I don't have time to keep up with this development but are you guys saying sodium stearate is OK now? I though it had an affinity for water which was undesirable.

Has anyone done a refrigerator test yet; i.e., refrigerated their rounds and shot them before they had a chance to warm up. Perhaps we'll need to wait for winter again before testing is completed.

MJ

[btroj]

MJ, it isn't the cold ammo that is always a problem, it is a cold barrel.
I think all lunes leave a film in the bore and with some lines that film needs to be warmed up by a few rounds in the cold.
I don't know if a clean, or cleaner, barrel would help reduce first shot flyers or not.

I would not use Carnuba Red in my Marlin 32-20 for squirrel hunting loads. Most shots would be from a cold, fouled barrel. That season tends to be under 40 degrees. With CR that gun tends to throw the first couple shots over an inch out at 50 yards. That is a big enough error to lead to misses.

Once I get done with my daughters graduation party this weekends can get back to shooting. I need to try a batch of Starmetal's lube but with Na stearate instead of ivory soap.