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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #461
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    Yep, I went back and studied your posts on the E-yellow and purple a couple of days ago. We'll see what it does in a few days/weeks, but one thing about the Mobil 1 grease and waxes I've played with over the course of this thread, they are what they're going to be after about 24 hrs unless you add some other soap thickeners. That Al stearate isn't compatible with any of the lithium thickeners technically, so it definetely modifies the lithium's ability to hold oil, and also how the whole concoction behaves under pressure, could be bad or good depending on the other ingredients. What you have seem to be working after a fashion, but I think you'll be able to skip a whole lot of the heat/cool/add/boil-off/mix/heat/cool mumbo-jumbo if you can simply add more of the right thickener to your grease.

    I just hope that adding thickener has the same effect as removing oil from the grease through osmosis has, should be the same thing except the percentage of "additive package" to the original grease will be reduced.

    Gear

  2. #462
    Boolit Buddy robroy's Avatar
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    Gear, What membrane are you using for the osmosis?

  3. #463
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    Unfortunately, I lack the stamina to assault all 24 pages of this thread in detail, but I like where you're going and salute you. Thomas Edison discovered a lot of things that didn't work as a light bulb filament. Keep plugging away and you'll get there.

    I'm pretty new to the whole casting and lube thing, but have done a lot of load development with impact-plated moly-coated jacketed bullets. The findings were that the velocities became more consistent while using the stuff. I think that moly may be part of your answer, because its lubricating properties are not dependent on temperature. Just a theory, but I think if you get your lube to be otherwise good in high temperature conditions, a little molybdenum disulfide in the mix might stabilize the performance when it's cold.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  4. #464
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    I shouldn't answer for Gar but I don't think osmosis is the correct technical term. I am assuming, and that's dangerous, that what he has is a grease where some of the oil has bled out over time.
    Technically osmosis would require a membrane and a substance moving due to differing concentrations.

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    I shouldn't answer for Gar but I don't think osmosis is the correct technical term. I am assuming, and that's dangerous, that what he has is a grease where some of the oil has bled out over time.
    Technically osmosis would require a membrane and a substance moving due to differing concentrations.
    The membrane I use is the dense, coated paper of common sheet rock. The grease is spread in a thin layer across the sheetrock and the oil is pulled, through capillary action, common absorption, etc. into the dry gypsum on the other side of the paper. I suppose it's technically "filtering the stearates", but since there's a semi-permeable membrane and the oil bleeds through until the concentration is the same on each side while the stearates remain behind, I figured "osmosis" was as close a description as any. In any event, the grease gets purged of quite a bit of excess oil, reducing in volume by as much as half. Without access to pre-compounded lithium stearates, this was the only way I had to "add" thickener to lithium grease.

    I'm not big on moly disulfide additives myself, but I may do some more testing with them later. My thoughts are that MDS accumulates over time, and I don't want anything in my lube that isn't purged exactly the same way each shot. Moly grease may not do this like the dry moly does, though. My first inclination, if a EP addtive is required, is to switch to a calcium sulfonate grease where the thickener itself performs by the same mechanism as the moly additive does.

    Gear

  6. #466
    Boolit Buddy robroy's Avatar
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    Diffusion across a semi-permeable membrane was the definition I learned. How long does it take until equilibrium was reached? Also was the oil wanting to come out of the grease without the drywall or not?

  7. #467
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    some greases can give up oil over time alone.
    the whole point of ading the thickener and the wax is to lock everything up and only let the oil we want to coat the bbl out.

    my main lube before the E-series was a tri-carrier- lithium and moly lube with atf as the final temp/visc modifier.
    i would wait and add the atf at a later time.
    it has the same malleability and slippery as the E-yellow.
    the E-purple is different with more grease than wax and the HTO wax as a binder/lube.

    i did get out and shoot the E-yellow in the 0-6 today, the jeeps temp thing said 85* out where we were.
    it was under hunting conditions [yeah, ground squirells and rock chucks again]
    i did see one groove with a little antimonial wash in it and it stayed all day but the rest of the bbl showed dark [like powder fouling].
    i pushed a patch through the bbl when we got home tonight, and it just come out dirty.
    the grey wash was still there in the one groove about an inch long, and pretty ragged looking, covering about half the width.

  8. #468
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    I'm seeing what might be a trend with the antimonial wash: Less wax, more wash. I shot several different straight grease lubes (dehydrated Valvoline lith stearate/mobil 1, and straight dehydrated Mobil 1). No real buildup, but a bad wash. Barrel's still dirty from that, in fact the last groups I shot were with the wax-free lubes after a thorough cleaning/prep, so it's somewhat telling. I think the wax content of many lubes is leaving a more robust lube film that keeps the antimony from depositing. For a while now I'm getting more and more convinced that oil is not enough to do the job of lube, it's actually the waxes that do that after all, and oils only modify the wax so it works better.

    Gear

  9. #469
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Could that more robust film left by the waxes why we get some cold barrel flyer from tradition lubes in cold weather?

  10. #470
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    Just wanted to throw a useful (maybe) forum at you. It's an oil forum and guys over there are supper crazy about the lubricants. Bunch of well knowledgeable people on the subject of lubricating, maybe they can help out with this quest for "perfect" bullet lube. Name is bob is the oil guy.com

    Mods I'm not trying to promote the other website, just think that we can get a lot of useful info. If inappropriate please delete.

  11. #471
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Gear - an old oil field trick is to use a rope or pipe cleaner to 'wick' liquids from contaminated fluids. I get the Sb streaks when using Recluse lube too, cleans out easily with solvent patch, but not a dry patch - unless it's really tight. An interesting observation, I'll pay more attention to it in my tests.
    Last edited by popper; 05-14-2012 at 11:02 AM.

  12. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    Could that more robust film left by the waxes why we get some cold barrel flyer from tradition lubes in cold weather?
    I think very much so. Carnauba wax leaves quite a film behind in barrels, more than any I've observed so far, but the carnuaba is also easiest to detect in slight amounts because of the telltale shine. I believe that the "slickness" of a bore can vary considerably with temperature simply due to humidity levels. Any humidity effectively goes away below 32F until after a few shots when the barrel is warm enough to heat the air/fumes inside after each shot back above freezing. Sound familiar?

    Gear

  13. #473
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    I don't sweat little antimonial streaks so much.
    since most of my rifle boolits are waterdropped,and i am seeing the streak right at the end of the bbl and it doesn't affect accuracy,i am not seeing an issue.
    the good part was that i was not seeing a "wet" goooey lube star at the end of the bbl or on the cases.
    even when sitting the loaded rounds in the direct sunlight on the hood of the jeep.
    i was worried with the lube really softening in the "heat".

    brad.
    i do think the waxes are part of the bbl condition problem,and is why i really started getting away from carnuba,and started going to the E-purple route of less wax and more grease/binders.

    when you just rub a dry wax across a metal you see little streaks and get friction/resistance.
    but if you get that wax's surface melted slightly [like the ski/skate thing] it cuts the friction to almost nothing.
    the soft waxes mike uses in his mml is just the harder waxes in a more melted stage at lower temps ,you can artificially soften the harder ones [plasticize,thin out]
    it's all part of this chase.

  14. #474
    Boolit Grand Master leftiye's Avatar
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    "For a while now I'm getting more and more convinced that oil is not enough to do the job of lube, it's actually the waxes that do that after all, and oils only modify the wax so it works better."

    Maybe a reversal of my thinking on Speed Green etc is in order. Maybe the synthetic oil isn't the majic ingredient, maybe it just helps the beezwax? How about hard microwax and bullplate? Or any of the super synthetic chainsaw oils.
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

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  15. #475
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    R5R: I agree, the waxes have to be controlled in what they do, whether it's melting, smearing, or both. It must happen evenly, and the grease thickeners and oil seem to do that very well. I think the key is to balance the wax against the soap thickener so the structure of the grease is more refined and won't clump or streak. I also think the metal soaps force the wax at the lubrication boundary to take heat more evenly, acting like a dispersed heat-sink element within the structure of the wax. The oil is probably mostly only a plasticizer. I know for a fact that if too much oil is present, things go to poop very quickly in the barrel and flyers and lead streaking starts to happen. I think we called this "wetting" in previous discussions, in this case too much wetting can cause the lube film to wick too well and the surface tension is too low.

    Leftiye: Petroleum microwax is very brittle unless you plasticize it somehow, and oil alone isn't enough, at least not the super-low viscosity oils like 2-stroke and ATF. There must be an "intermediate" ingredient. It would be REALLY nice to have a true synthetic PAO fluid that was as viscous as Vaseline at room temperature, something on the order of ISO 100,000 I believe. However, the grease thickeners are very flexible and combine their matrix with that of the wax to make a much more flexible lube, provided the oil content is not too high.

    What R5R and I are saying is the wax does as much or possibly more "lubing" than anything, and the oils are only really there to reduce the viscosity and brittleness of the hard waxes to the required amount without lowering the melt point too much. You have to be careful of the VI of the oil in the grease, though, or the lube will turn runny when hot or gummy/brittle when cold. I think the oil types in common lithium chassis grease is the downfall of MML in the heat (that, and the beeswax/microwax having a low melt point). Regular grease reduces the melt point of wax, but the synthetic grease doesn't seem to have as dramatic an effect on this.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 05-14-2012 at 03:45 PM.

  16. #476
    Boolit Master Eutectic's Avatar
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    I am thinking more and more that both oil(s) and wax(es) are needed.

    The more I test.... The more I read.... The more results that get posted here.... Well, I think one parameter is needed at the launch from the case and another out towards the muzzle when the streaks of Sb start to show up. The two constituents also need to consistently make a flawless 'handoff' somewhere in between! The wax, or whatever works at the muzzle end also needs to be just enough volume wise.... This may be the biggest hurdle to get across especially when cold weather (and cold starts) are factored in to deal with!

    Keep up the good work!!

    Eutectic

  17. #477
    Boolit Master bruce381's Avatar
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    Gear and Run samples on the way BUT.

    The Lith sterate soap Does not work with the PAG or PAO it will NOT solubilize in that base stock. This is why sometimes esters or mineral oils are added to get the solubility needed.

    Since the soap HAS too disolve in the base oil to gell upon cooling, also normaly stirring will take place as the grease gels and cools or you will get grainy or lumpy grease.

    I send the 2 soaps a lith sterate and a lith 12 hydroxy complex sterate, they BOTH take 225-240 C to fully melt.

    I also sent something kinda new a PAG that is oil soluble unlike what I sent before, it is UCON OSP-32 it WILL gel with the Lith sterate and at 15%wt will make a white play dough grease. Maybe a 3-4 grade I did not test it.

    Have fun

  18. #478
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    Thanks again, Bruce!

    I know the base oil in Mobil 1 grease (a PAO I'm certain) has a difficult time mixing with certain things, as do most PAOs since the molecular structure is so consistent that it "pushes out" other hydrocarbon chains that aren't the same size. I also haven't found a single thing that the PAG you sent before will mix with, although it makes a fine aluminum grease by itself.

    I did get the Mobil 1 grease to mix with lithium complex block grease pretty well when heated to around 500F, but that block grease has two distinctly different base oils in it, both conventional, group II oils.

    I'm going to try just thickening existing grease with these additives at first, I don't think the base oil really matters all that much anymore as long as it's a synthetic with a high VI to extend the stable operating range of the lube.

    Gear

  19. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post


    Thanks again,bruce

    I'm going to try just thickening existing grease with these additives at first, I don't think the base oil really matters all that much anymore as long as it's a synthetic with a high VI to extend the stable operating range of the lube.

    Gear
    ditto here.

    i first want to try the lith thickener with my E-purple [mixed grease] recipe, but only add about 5% like i did in the yellow [single white lith].
    then cook it to see what gives.
    then decide on the carrier.
    i have some sticks of saeco green [50-50 b-wax and parrafin] or straight magma micro wax,that i'd like to try.
    and see if it will take the grease mix [aand at how low of a concentration] and hold it without the cab-o-sil and hto.
    freeing up room for some natural fat lube .

  20. #480
    Boolit Master bruce381's Avatar
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    try mineral oils wax and I guess i should send an ester that will gel but this gets farther away from modifing a current boolit lube.

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