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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #421
    Boolit Master Eutectic's Avatar
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    One item I neglected to mention in my post. It was mentioned early on with your conversations with Bruce.

    That item was Boron Nitride.

    I think and would recommend that item should be remembered as a possible additive at some point... maybe when the "lube" is about perfected.
    I have limited experience with Boron Nitride and it is all with "J" word slugs. I really like what I have seen however. I have long thought a lubricant on jacketed would also help. What would happen mixed in a cast boolit lube is anybody's guess as it is like comparing cats and dogs. But just maybe... back to those cold barrel first shot fliers..
    Dave Tubbs (long range match shooter?) has a site where he sells Boron Nitride "kits". I don't think he would mind me copying a paragraph to here. It might sell some for him!

    "But the biggest reason to use Boron Nitride on your bullets, the most important advantage Boron Nitride coated bullets have over bare and Moly coated bullets, is that the first shot from a cold, "dirty" barrel will go into the group (of all the subsequent shots). You can't say this about Moly coated bullets, and in David's experience, the first shots using Moly coatings usually go low, and bare bullets are unpredictable."

    Kind of a near home comment huh?

    Also I would like to clarify my comment about smearing some Alox 350 onto a round to use for a cold barrel first shot. My prior comments could be misunderstood as smearing and then loading the round as I re-read my post.... I smeared the thin amount of extra lube outside onto a regular already loaded round from my box for the first shot. It works so far.......

    Eutectic

  2. #422
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    Well POOP. My attempt to copy Starmetal's soap lube are a total bust. I shot 20 of one variety, and 20 of another with a little more castor oil, groups avereraged about 2" at 50 yards, and the bore was streaked with lead. The lead would pick up and move around from shot to shot in the area I could see from the muzzle end. If the gun leads, it isn't going to shoot straight, period. The last ten of the soap-lube batch were loaded with the lube Joe sent me, it actually started cleaning out the lead and groups began to return to normal size. If I'd had another 10 I'll bet it would have cleaned up the rest of the way.

    So I got aggravated and scrubbed the remaining fouling out of the barrel, left a haze of Ed's Red in there, and shot a test group of boolits lubed with Felix lube and the same powder charge/primer/boolit/OAL. Back to 3/4" like normal and a slight antimony/lead dusting following the rifling, but not back to the 1/2" groups the zombie and buzzing centaur lubes would do. I'm sure any seasoning the bore had is shot to heck by having to clean lead out so many times, and Felix lube needs a few shots to settle in.

    Now I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me I need to shoot hundreds of rounds before the lube starts to work, but I'm not waiting that long. If the lube I made sucks this badly this soon, I'm not messing with it any more. I don't know what Joe puts in that stuff to make it work like it does, but it isn't the same stuff I use, that's for certain.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  3. #423
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    20 tells you everything you need to know.
    the first 10 may/may not group decently,the second 10 better or things are not right.

    you can get regular grease to mix into b-wax without melting it.
    you need to be able to control the heat to get the b-wax to a soft mush stage then just blend in the grease.
    let it cool and rest.
    heat it up, and then blend again.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

  4. #424
    Boolit Buddy Tech2's Avatar
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    Thought that I would share what I have found. Lubriplate sells a brick grease NLGI7
    http://www.lubricants.com/BuyersGuid...rickGrease.php
    It's lithium12 based and hard enough that you can cut it with a knife.
    I also get my drylubes from the derbydust guy
    http://www.derbydust.com/xcart/produ...8&cat=4&page=1
    I use LLA with a little HBN for .308 rifle with good success. I can push the speed up until the boolit fails with no leading issues. I haven't tested it for cold bore issues.
    What speed ranges are you guys testing your work at?

  5. #425
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    R5R and I are both running about 1950 fps in our .30 calibers I believe. I backed a known-good load down from just over 2K fps for this testing so we're in about the same velocity range. I have some other loadings that do well at about 2200 fps in this rifle, but they involve special measures that give a sort of handicap to the lube.

    That Lubriplate stuff is well over $2,000 for a 50-lb box of J-sticks if I remember right from a few weeks ago, so I wrote it off. NLGI #6 isn't hard enough by itself to be handled much when installed on boolits, it's still quite sticky. One of the guys helping out on this project, Bruce381, is a lubrication engineer and is in the process of obtaining and testing a couple of different lithium soap thickers that can be used to make any consistency of grease desired with any normal lubricating oil, making a stiff enough, straight grease lube is on the "list" of things to do.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  6. #426
    Boolit Master Eutectic's Avatar
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    Tech2,

    Thanks for your comments and posting the links!

    What percentage of HBN are you adding to LLA?

    What are your thoughts about using HBN as an additive in conventional boolit lube?

    I have pondered 'dusting' some already lubed boolits with HBN as some do with Motor Mica..... Any thoughts on that?

    Again, thanks for your comments.

    Eutectic

  7. #427
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    i am in the 1950 range too, with both my 0-6 and 8 mauser.
    i might be exceeding that in my ar-30, but i know it's dead on 1950 in my ruger 77 i have put more rounds from that rifle over the chrono than all my other guns combined.
    mainly from the rpm linear tests and the bulk of my earlier lube testing
    i think it is the one i will use for the e-purple testing. [wish i had all that powder/lead back]
    i know it's accuracy capability's at 100 yds,and will detect any anomalies right off.
    that and i have about 500 pieces of once fired federal brass i can size/trim on my dillon trimmer and load on the 550 to have enough "same" rounds to carry the test through the winter.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

  8. #428
    Boolit Buddy Tech2's Avatar
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    I had some rounds that were pan lubed with Felix lube. I couldn't stand how sticky that they turned out so i dusted them with HBN on my fingers. They shot fine and probably did an excelent job of coating the bore. My next thought was to add a little HBN to the LLA they also shot cleanly but the coating was too thick. I saw the 45/45/10 formula and it looks a lot closer to what I am after. I currently have 50 rounds of LLA/HBN/mineral spirits curing. They have a nice thin milky white coating that looks promising. I didn't have any paste wax to add to the mix. I have been developing loads for my SKS so extreme accuracy is out of the question. I may have to break out the K-31 if I find something that starts looking promising. The SKS has a 9.5 twist ratio, I am running RL-7 and RL10 powder. Things are fairly predictable to about 1850 fpm. Beyond that and it appears that the bullets are breaking up about 50 yards down range. The crony maxed out in the 2000's and more powder didn't go faster. I assume that the bullets are too soft to go faster so I just cast up some harder ones. I measure the HBN on the tip of an Exacto knife it doesn't take very much.

    My current technique is to slosh the bullets around in the fluid then drain the excess off and let the bullets dry.
    I stir them occasionally to keep the coating even.
    Tech
    Last edited by Tech2; 05-08-2012 at 11:07 AM. Reason: added picture

  9. #429
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    I still think Tungsten Disulfide in a hard polymer and wax hot tumble-coating is worth looking into. A high-melt point microwax and some Vybar should do the trick, maybe a little LLA for the sticky if it needs it. After about ten shots with the powder fouling patched out each shot the barrel should be nicely coated.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  10. #430
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    3 parts cooked off jpw and 1 part beeswax with the titanium or boron nitride would do quite well also.
    i have used this mix w/o those dry adds but have used graphite.
    it should work about the same.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

  11. #431
    Boolit Buddy Tech2's Avatar
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    I picked up some JPW tonight. Another tub of stuff on the shelf!!
    Is there a reason why the JPW is usually cooked off?
    I am thinking about thinning it way down . I always end up with too much lube .
    The tungsten disulfide is a great dry lube I use it on trigger groups and other sliding parts.
    I like the HBN on the bullets and bores I think that it has great stability over time and it doesn't absorb water, being white is a real plus as well

  12. #432
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    so it will dry.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

  13. #433
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    How's $130.00 per Kilo (2.2 pounds) for Lithium Stearate sound?

    MJ

  14. #434
    Boolit Buddy Tech2's Avatar
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    Sorry
    I was thinking tumble lube and it didn't make any sense to cook off the solvents just to put them back in.
    Tech

  15. #435
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    it don't make sense.
    i had to explain it to recluse too when he was working on the 45/45/10 lube.
    but you are taking out one thing and putting back another.
    mineral spirits will dissipate/evaporate allowing the wax to dry.

    m.j. that don't sound too bad actually.

    if i can make something similar to my E-purple with it, that would be a lot of lube.
    it takes about 3 tsp @ 150 grns to make 9-10 sticks of lube.
    a pound would make about 500 sticks of lube.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

  16. #436
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    I agree, it doesn't make sense, but the heat changes something. What you have after cooking off the solvents and adding back mineral spirits isn't the same stuff you started with. Some sort of polymerization going on there or something, especially if you add liquid Alox and cook the two together for a while. I figured that out trying to shortcut the 45/45/10 lube, it doesn't work the same if you don't cook it.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  17. #437
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post

    m.j. that don't sound too bad actually.

    if i can make something similar to my E-purple with it, that would be a lot of lube.
    it takes about 3 tsp @ 150 grns to make 9-10 sticks of lube.
    a pound would make about 500 sticks of lube.
    Well, I guess that's about 12 cents worth of Lithium Stearate per stick (excluding shipping). If the Lithium Stearate is an essential ingredient in a great* lube, I'll order some assuming I can get at least one other person to split the cost with me.

    MJ

    * Note: Heavy emphasis on GREAT

  18. #438
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    i'm using the aluminum stearate right now.
    just waiting on bruces testing of the lith stearate he was able to get a sample of.
    the lith has some better properties though.
    i am very happy with the E-purple right now,and just lubed up all the 8mm gas checks i had left with it.
    so i can do a head to head 20 round test with it, the j-lube, and my normal moly.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    the more i find out about shootin boolits, the more it contradicts everything i ever learned about shooting jaxketed.

  19. #439
    Boolit Mold
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    Tungsten disulfide (WS.sub.2) is a known dry-film lubricant that was developed for NASA by Stanford University in the 1960's. Following its initial debut, tungsten disulfide found its way into industrial applications, primarily in aerospace and defense applications. Tungsten disulfide is known to improve wear properties and to enhance lubricity. It also has an affinity for lubricants, resulting in oil-retention properties in "wet" applications.

    Tungsten disulfide is commercially available at WS2Oil.com as a powder that comprises finely divided tungsten disulfide particles with a mean particle size ranging between about 1 micron and about 3 micron, depending upon the commercial supplier. Tungsten disulfide adheres to a substrate surface through a molecular/mechanical interlock and takes on the characteristic of the substrate regardless of whether the substrate is ferrous, non-ferrous, a composite, carbide or plastic. When applied to a substrate material, tungsten disulfide also forms a very thin layer due to the fact that it does not bond to itself. As a result, the dimensions and tolerances of treated parts are not compromised or appreciably affected when a substrate is treated with tungsten disulfide. Further, these aspects of tungsten disulfide prevent chipping, flaking or contamination problems.


    Been doing some research to simplify the lube process and am thinking of going this route for pistol ammo but should also work with rifle ammo. What ya think?

  20. #440
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    I don't care what you do as long as you don't get the bonehead from "Nano-lub" over on this site trying to cram his snake oil down our throats . Things that need lube in outer space are coated in a high-temperature baking process similar to powder coating, but much higher temps, and the Boron or tungsten nitrides are commonly used. If I were to go with one of those substances, I'd get one that has much larger particles.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check