"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[bruce381]

""I started wondering a lot about the real application of grease here for boolit lube a few days ago, and built a wear tester that spins finely machined, high-carbon steel against boolits under repeatable pressure, similar to the ASTM wear tests for grease""

Try some sulfur ester 1-2% will carry a way good load BUT boolits are lead NOT steel so higher load carrying maybe from sulfur ester and a FATTY oil like the lard oil.

Lith is on the way have 1LB each of Lith Sterate and Lith 12 Hydroxy sterate , to sue must heat soap and oil to 200-250C. I will try PAG with 10% when they arive and let you know.

I will send 4-5 ounces to each of you guys. 50 lb sack is no big deal.
if this flys maybe Lars will blend I do not want to.


bruce

[runfiverun]

bruce thats 200 centigrade?

[geargnasher]

Bruce, you da man! Getting small samples requires some diplomacy for sure.

I've tested the PAG oil you sent on the wear tester since we last communicated, it did better than any other plain oil I tested, including straight lard oil, straight neat, and combinations of lard, sulur, and neat oil. I also tested the heavy lithi-bee I made with Li complex brick grease, beeswax, and the three oils at 2-3% each, it was ok but not impressive. It did shoot pretty well, though. I knew the PAG was good EP oil, but didn't know how good for lead alloy/steel until I wear tested it. I'll definetely be looking to make the stout grease with the PAG instead of PAOs at first. I think you'll discover that 30% is more like what you'll need to make a real, stand-alone boolit lube with just those two. The #6 brick greases I have contain around 20% and aren't firm enough for lube without about 30% beeswax added. I have extracted oil from some petroleum-based lithium complex wheel bearing grease to the point that it had an excellent consistency for lube, so I know it's possible to add enough thickener to get the consistency we desire. The only issue is getting it to do what we need it to do in the barrel, and I thing PAG oil is going to be key here.

Gear

[bruce381]

PAGs with very high VI stay thick hot also have LOW COEF or friction NOt really EP tho

[bruce381]

Have new PAG normally they will not mix into mineral or PAO oils new ones out will mix with oil. Added to engine oils will imporve sludge protection, reduce friction and improve oxidation.
bruce

[runfiverun]

this pag doesn't go dry and crumbly when heated i hope.
i think it is what was causing my issues when trying to mix the j-lube with other things.
hopefully, the newer stuff avoids these issues.
if so, it will be a major improvement, and will make things considerably easier to work with.
i could dismiss the lower visc lith grease entirely [and keep the others] and use the pag, the stearate, [possibly a poe]
and the waxes but a soft and medium instead of a medium and hard.
i'll have to rework the cooking too, from up to down.
instead of from down to up.

[geargnasher]

I bought a fresh mega-pack of Ivory and have been playing with it quite a bit. It's fun to make grease with nothing but heavy petrolatum and bar soap and add stuff to it, but man, it takes a lot of heat to melt that soap correctly. If you nuke the soap to a fluffy, marshmallowy stuff and add it to an oil that can take 450 degrees it's much easier. I made a big batch of straight sodium soap grease and divvied it up to play with, and learned some things. PAOs, for some reason, don't like being mixed with it. I know PAO oils usually don't like to mix with petroleum oils (no room in the identical chains for the addition of mixed-length hydrocarbons), but the synthetics don't do well with the soap, either. Bummer.

Remember how we talked about lube needing to "go soft" after the boolit engraved? The soap lube tends to go soft when sheared, but not get too soft. So it can be made firmer without having to have too much easy-melting components added to it.

When I get my hands on some of that lithium stearate I want to mix it with sodium stearate and make a double-based grease first, adding lithium grease to the soap grease isn't "doing it" for me, I think due to the base oils. Using petrolatum and even Yaley shaping wax (micro/macro paraffin blend) as the "oil" component of the sodium grease intead of using lower-viscosity oils is key to success here, I'm no longer thinking in terms of oil+carrier like I did before, regular lube oils are just too thin for lubrication, a WAX is what we really need for lube in a rifle, the oils we've been using, like Brad mentioned on the other thread, are really more of a viscosity modifier for the wax rather than functioning as lubes themselves.

Like I said before, it would be nice to have a micro-crystalline wax that was relatively impervious to heat for a carrier, and use a softer wax for a lube. Joe's lube has a small amount of lube oil, a much larger amount of petrolatum, then beeswax, then the soap in high concentration. You have a liquid lube, a lube with a low melt point, the wax with a higher melt point, and the soap which probably never gets near hot enough to melt in the barrel. If I could find something like Vaseline that stayed softer at low temps, and find a way to boost the VI of castor oil, and then use a high-melt-point microcrystalline wax with the soap I'd think it would work even better in the cold than Joe says it does.

I really need to get off my duff and order some BW-431.

Gear

[runfiverun]

you want a high temp micro wax.
one that melts at say 135-150f?
one you can put in the microwave for 10 minutes with no effect,and has a higher melt point than carnuba red?
that would describe the one i am using in the E-purple.
i usually just melt it into the grease with a torch,but direct heat will do it too.

[geargnasher]

I was thinking 180F melt point, and let the vaseline do the softening. Beeswax is already a microwax with a 145 melt point. I want to experiment with a lube that has an essentially non-melting base, a heavy oil (vaseline), and a small amount of liquid slickum additive. Following the idea that waxes lubricate boolits better than light oils do, I'm looking to try a "crayon lube" with better pliability and viscosity than the hard lubes. I'd like to have "soft" while still having high melt point, I think softening a high-melt wax with vaseline or something else will do that.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the vaseline would act as a plasticizer for the wax..
remember that recipe i gave you for the scheutzen black powder lube?
you just reinvented it.

[geargnasher]

the vaseline would act as a plasticizer for the wax..
remember that recipe i gave you for the scheutzen black powder lube?
you just reinvented it.

Maybe Joe and Bob aren't as far off the wall as some would think. I don't like petrolatum, but it does a job in certain lubes that is hard to substitute.

Here's what I've done the last few days, part of what spawned the rambling of my last couple of posts here: Take a look at lubes that work and what makes them work, and go from there for temp adustments.

Things that work in the cold: MML, Speed Green, your modified Tri-carrier, multi-lube formula + atf, FWFL + vaseline/atf. Common carriers that work are beeswax/microwax plasticized with vaseline or oil, oils that work are what's found in ordinary lithium grease, castor/light paraffin oils, synthetic two-stroke oil, atf, pretty much anything. I think in wax lube formulas the oils serve more as viscosity modifiers for the wax than as lube oils, which may be why it's tough to make a grease lube without any wax at all. Sodium and lithium greases both work, and have for generations.

Things that DON'T work in the cold: Paraffin Macro-waxes (candle wax) in large percentages, and carnauba in any significant percentage. Mike could probably add significantly to this list.

So, any lube with a really heavy metal soap base, some microcrystalline wax, and some flavor of petrolatum or oil as a softener and plasticizer, and just a tiny hint of some really good, low-viscosity oil should do it. That sounds like a lot of good formulas I know Now how do we make it work both hot and cold? Joe says his formula does it no problem, and I have no reason to doubt him, but based on the ingredient list I have to think it could be improved slightly for cold-weather function. Winter is a long way away here, it doesn't even start to get cold until November. I'll have to really wring it out then and see if my guns like it. If they do, I think it'll be time for a new thread.

MML Winter sounds like it needs higher-temp wax and probably more lithium thickener to make up for the very large amount of lube oil in it for heat. Making it from scratch with synthetic grease or with just the thickener and different synthetic oils of choice might raise the upper temp limit without compromising the cold-weather attributes.

Gear

[geargnasher]

For posterity, I'm copying Mike's post from another recent thread, it should clear up any mystery as to what his lubes are and do.

Lithium Grease/Beeswax lubes have got to be one of the most goofproof things out there. PERIOD.....they just plain work and the range of %'s that they work at are very generic and just plain hard to screw up.

I make MML for all my hunting lubes it does the cold really well with NO first shot flyers when the weather makes your lungs hurt and the trees are sparkling/snapping and popping from the cold:
3LB Cappings grade Beeswax
1lb parraffin
1 14oz tube cheap caramel colored lithium grease
1/2 lb Microcrystalline wax #430 from blendedwaxes.com

For warmer weather and general non hunting use I have been using a stiffer MML/Thick mix of:
7.5Lbs beeswax
1lb Microwax #430
1lb (ish) glob of white lithium grease #630-2 from an old steel Lubriplate bucket as I have alot of it and it works. This mix does not throw any first shot flyers in the weather I have tested it in thus far and accuracy is simply amazing.


Both lubes will do any speed the rifles I use it in can handle presure wise and both have been north of 2600fps with accuracy and zero leading. Lithi-bee type recipes need not be measured out with labratory grade equipment. You can even use volume measurements if you keep track of what you did to get where you went to find happiness. I use the microwax to keep the lubes friendly and flexibendy and it has the added benefit of reducing/eliminating first shot flyers but just lithi/bwax can be used when you find the percentage that YOU and YOUR GUNS like.

[btroj]

What if we reduced the paraffin in the winter formula and replaced it with some of the microwax? Or leave the paraffin and added a few ounces of Vaseline?
seems like there might be a happy middle ground there?

[runfiverun]

modifying a lube for summer and winter use is relatively easy to do.
viscosity counts.
i went back and read this whole thread yesterday, it brought up a bunch of thoughts i had forgotten about.
we have moved forward [or somewhere] the hard thing is we have peramiters but no finish line.

[geargnasher]

modifying a lube for summer and winter use is relatively easy to do.
viscosity counts.
i went back and read this whole thread yesterday, it brought up a bunch of thoughts i had forgotten about.
we have moved forward [or somewhere] the hard thing is we have peramiters but no finish line.

That's interesting. I'm afraid to read this whole thing from the beginning, however, last night I read the "something that might help" sticky through again, and we haven't made it that far away from the thoughts we originally had, although I learned a lot about the effects of solid thickeners and now am thinking more about wax and less about oil. You're right, overall viscosity is what matters, but don't forget about lubricity, either. You and I have said for years that viscosity and lubricity were the keys to making the best lube for the application. A lube that leaves a constent film shot-to-shot is still key, and having something that we can either pre-foul a clean bore with for hunting, or something that doesn't dry out in the barrel during storage would help.

A month ago we didn't even have a good discussion and agreement on those parameter in one thread. Some of us had our own ideas (mostly similar it turns out), but it's been a long time since this board had a thorough examination of boolit lube and how it really works. At least we've accomplished that.

I just have to find time to do more shooting. It's getting into the mid '90s here during the day, it'll be 100+ every afternoon in a few weeks, so I can at least torture test the lube formulas I've come up with (Zombie lube, the Buzzing Centaur lube, and Starmetal's formula + variations.

I'm going to redo the Zombie lube with microwax, vaseline, and keep the AC oil. The Buzzing Centaur is likely to become Micro/lithi/goop with some sort of synthetic oil (perhaps a bit of Mobil 1 or Mobil Centaur grease, and if I get time I might explore the Hippie lube with Soy wax/castor wax/jojoba/microwax/castor oil/canola oil/hydrogenated canola oil and very possibly some Ivory soap. Ivory may be the secret to making the soy wax stiff enough to work in the heat, or maybe just using sodium stearate, but the trick is going to be getting it melted in or making it "cold" with the oils and stearic acid/sodium hydroxide.

Still to try are the tri-stearates and bi-stearates and maybe even cellulose or paper-fiber/wax lubes. Having the samples of the nice modifiers/additives Bruce sent will be helpful for working out kinks in any of these.

Gear

[runfiverun]

maaaan, i was just getting ready to send you a couple of samples

[geargnasher]

Hey, at this point, what's another three or four lubes to test?

I'm going to have to cast some more boolits really soon, I've gone through nearly 400 in all the testing I've done so far. It's also getting time to rotate in a fresh 50-count of brass for this rifle, the stuff I'm using is starting to get long in the tooth. I loaded 50 more with my version of Joe's lube tonight, if it isn't raining tomorrow I'll send them downrange and see what gives. Hopefully we're getting it narrowed down.....

Gear

[Eutectic]

I've been away from this site for quite a while. I thought about "Cast Boolits" the other day and looked around.... I found this thread.

Over two days off and on I read all 21 pages.

Myself and probably many other "quiet watchers" appreciate all your work.. (and I do mean work!) This is much needed and I believe you are on the right track. Do not get discouraged as "derailments" happen as real answers are sought.

I totally agree that a synthetic base oil lithium complex thickened grease may well be a good/great place to start!

I work at the moment with a Winchester lever gun that I want to hunt with this fall. Like most lever guns it is sensitive to vertical dispersion. It is even more sensitive to cold barrel first shot fliers because of this trait!

I want a lube that eliminates cold barrel fliers in a temperature range from say zero to 80 F. Like 357Max, I have no fun shooting or hunting when it is 100 outside.

I've tried almost all the talked about commercial lubes mentioned on this site. Most fail pretty bad in our Rocky Mountain winters. I have modified them with improvement but not solution! I keep going back to what has been working for me. Six different guns and calibers shoot accurate with it; half of them don't have cold barrel fliers; two do have cold barrel flyers, but they are only a half inch or so out of the group. (Shot on my 70 yard range) Then there is the Winchester mentioned above..... It shoots groups so good I won't brag about them! But it will 'throw' that first cold barrel flier 2 1/2" high almost like clockwork!

I believe the affected area of the barrel which is allowed to cool completely and then causes our trouble is in the first few inches of travel. Heat affected, carbonized or burnt deposits that change friction or drag from a warm and otherwise good shooting lube/gun/load situation? The starting out with a 'conditioned' bore is a good idea! I tried another way that has worked and am still testing it for repeatability.

I apologize for my lube mix ahead of time as I know those working hardest here won't like it. It is 46% Alox 350, 50% Beeswax, and 4% Carnauba Wax flakes, all by weight. I KNOW it shouldn't like cold weather but it does? Many because it is less viscous than even normal 50-50 mixes... BUT..

I found if I smear a thin coat (few thousandths) of just the lube component (Alox 350) on the last 1/8" of the case and first 1/8" of the bullet, that so far, first shot fliers are eliminated by shooting this lightly coated round first. I plan to foul the cold dirty barrel every time to see if it continues to repeat itself.

But I'd like to leave the Alox 350 for what you come up with!

The following link below drew my eyeballs in like a magnet! A synthetic grease with a base oil super viscous (Iso 1500)! I have a theory this may very well leave the bore more compatible for 'in group' cold starts? But I could be all wet...

I have a question.... How do you blend beeswax into these high temp drop point greases? Surely the grease can't be taken to liquid? Is it just a homogenizing sort of blending with the melted beeswax?

Again, hang in there with your project! I felt something would come of this just a few pages in!

Eutectic

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...&docFormat=PDF

[runfiverun]

it took a couple of tries to get the wax in.

first i add the melted beeswax to the modified grease.
then blend.
then heat it all up together over 200-f
and blend again.
i also have to make the base grease mixes and let them sit for about 24 hours.
then add the base waxes.
and then i let that sit for 7-10 day's to let things mellow and fully harden.
so the first time i make a recipe i have to either guess,or wait,or both.

[geargnasher]

Thanks for the input and feedback, Eutectic.

As far as not liking Alox, I like lubes that work, I don't care what's in them. It's just that I shoot a lot in the heat and have found that Alox-based lubes consistently give me bore-fouling problems over long strings. Others may not have this issue, as much of this stuff is very subjective and we tend to draw false or premature conclusions from a few experiences, when something else like powder selection or alloy might be causing the issues. If it works, it works.

I DO think that you're absolutely correct about viscosity being the key factor in making your BAC lube work in the cold. It doesn't freeze solid, and the coating it leaves in the bore doesn't dry out as badly as some do.

The Chevron cable grease is something I've looked at, but I've experimented a lot with a block grease (hard like room-temp muenster cheese) that had two oil components, one of which was Shell MVI 700 base stock oil with an ISO 1400 viscosity rating at 70F, and I haven't concluded that the thick base oil really does much for boolit lube. The synthetics definetely are capable of keeping the overall viscosity of the lube more consistent throughout the useful temp range of the lube, though. Mobil 1 grease is good for that, it's only very slightly more "stiff" at 0 F than it is at 90F.

As far as blending waxes with the high-temp greases, the only way to do it is to melt the wax, keeep it below it's scorching temp, and dissolve the grease in it. That means a lot of stirring and mashing lumps with a spatula. Beeswax begins to fry at temps much over 250, many of the greases have a 500+ degree drop point, so getting them blended is more of a solvent thing than a melt thing.

Some days I think that all we really need is a lubricating wax with a very high melt point tempered with a high-VI oil so it's flexible at all shooting temps. Let the wax do the real lubing and only consider the oil as a VI and viscosity modifier. If such could be made and prove to leave consistent bore condition and not throw cold barrel flyers, or could be pre-conditioned somehow to eliminate the flyer, it would certainly work. This is sort of the concept behind my "Neon Zombie" lube using PAG oil to modify beeswax. When I get some microwax I'll play with that concept a lot more.

Gear