"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

alox leaves it's own black gunk in the bbl it don't need no help.

[geargnasher]

alox leaves it's own black gunk in the bbl it don't need no help.

Plus freakin' one to that!

BTW, don't you ever sleep?

Gear

[popper]

Ed's red on a nylon brush got rid of the black gunk. 20 passes with the chore-boy got rid of the lead - lots of it in last half bbl - strips & flakes make a 1/2" dia. pile on the work bench. Not as bad as crayon lube. Don't either of you sleep?

[geargnasher]

Don't either of you sleep?

Nope!

Gear

[45 2.1]

Nope! Gear

You'll get a lot less now you got a wake up call. Soap lube got your attention now?

[runfiverun]

i got 5 whole hours last night, err,, this early morning. feel good.

bob:
just tell us what you are using.

[Larry Gibson]

I think he's using starmetals soap lube. If one cares to search through the 6.5 threads starmetal posted how to make it once. When starmetal shipped some of his Kurtz bullets to me to test they were bare so I couldn't test or vouch for his concoctions usefulness. My guess is that is the current secret ingrediant that keeps us all from walking across the rice paper w/o leaving wrinkles, at least with the 6.5 Swede or any other cartridge at high velocity anyway.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

bob:just tell us what you are using.

I use my own stuff Lamar, a blend of the old NRA lube from a batch that had the new lousy vaseline in it and some of 357 Maximum's dark red lube (each had properties to cure the other). I have nine lubrisizers, each (except one) with a different lube in it. The empty one will get some soap lube in it (when I find its plunger) which is an excellent high velocity lube (which Ian will find out fairly soon). Three of them get used quite often.

(edit)

[geargnasher]

You'll get a lot less now you got a wake up call. Soap lube got your attention now?

Riveted. This stuff is unbelievable.

Gear

[runfiverun]

k, thanks bob.
i'll look into it some more.

[Marlin Junky]

Riveted. This stuff is unbelievable.

Gear

Gear,

I'm checking in for the first time in about a week... what's unbelievable? I'm still waiting for Lithium Stearate quotes.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Starmetal Joe's soap lube, MJ. I've tried to make it several times in the past according to his directions and newest recipe (none of this is on the forum, BTW, it has evolved a bit since he was last able to post about it) and haven't been able to make it work, so he was kind enough to send me a sample. It's dang near impossible to make, but I figured out another way to do it that works much better. Very involved, but it works flawlessly and doesn't burn any of the ingredients.

I shot some of Starmetal's lube in the test mule and early indications are very, very positive. It is every bit as accurate at 80 degrees as anything I've ever used in this rifle, more accurate than most, and has an interesting effect of clearing out previous antimony wash and slight lead fouling that this gun has always had a tendency to develop on the trailing edges of the lands. In less than 20 shots it was all gone. Perhaps a fluke, but I know this rifle and that's pretty outstanding. The other thing that impressed me very highly was how it lubricates steel against boolit, but that requires some explanation:

I started wondering a lot about the real application of grease here for boolit lube a few days ago, and built a wear tester that spins finely machined, high-carbon steel against boolits under repeatable pressure, similar to the ASTM wear tests for grease you may be familiar with. Some of the other participants here are aware of this through PM discussions. I tested every lube formula I had, both experimental and proven (over 30 concoctions), and every individual grease, oil, wax and soap I had on hand. Starmetal's lube outclassed them all on my tester, you can believe it or not. Carnauba Red and Felix lube were the next best, and everyting else was far behind. Even pure lanolin wasn't as good as those three. I don't know how valid this testing really is, but I do know that lubricating lead alloy sliding rapidly against steel isn't the thing that grease-thickened oil is designed to do, and in fact does a lousy job of it.

So before you go asking me all about this and how to make it, give me a bit to test it more and report. Btroj mentioned trying it with some sodium stearate he has intead of using the soap, since most of us have reservations about the glycerin and salt content of Ivory, so I'd like to see how that goes, too. And R5R and I are a LONG way from being finished with the multi-stearate grease lubes, in fact we've only gotten really good and started with making and testing those formulas. Bruce381 is in the process of getting a sample of Lithium stearate from a supplier to try. Personally, as far as Starmetal's soap lube goes, I think the finished lube is harmless based on my own, long-term test of a different soap lube for corrosion on polished brass and copper. At this point, my only real reservation is how this stuff will do in the cold. I love the fact that it is virtually impervious to heat. It doesn't even begin to run until nearly 200F, and even then it's still like peanut butter and honey mixed. If it will shoot straight to 10 F with no significant cold flyers, and hangs together for a long string in real heat, that should be more than good enough for most of us here, no? Only more testing will tell, but I'm very optimistic based on Starmetal's long-term reports and my own experience with it, as far as I've been able to test it does exactly what he's been saying it does. I only hope that it holds up to a variety of guns, loads, and let's not forget handloaders.. We all do things differently, and I have a feeling that a lot of experimenters are going to blame an experimental formula for things not related to lube at all, it always happens when somebody comes up with a new thing. All I can say is my proven gun and load loved the stuff, having already shot very well with Felix lube and many others.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i just come in but know what's going on.
i was reading some copper/tin/lead spec sheets for making leaded bronze.
it seems they add the lead to the mix to make it more machineable and the lead adds the lubricity needed to glide against steel.
it also gathers up any dirt that should happen to get into the bearing area.
interesting properties.
this when used as a bearing for like around a shaft.
however when used for something like a worm gear the specifications changed,and lead was not used, but magnesium or aluminum was added.
i know, no bearing really on the thread, just showing that because we tried something [a component] don't mean there isn't another way to re-work the same thing.

[geargnasher]

I'm still going to gather up the stuff at some point to make Mg/Na/Li stearate grease that's supposed to be shear-stable to really high pressure and temperature. I think finding compatible thickeners and blending them for the specific purpose of lead-alloy/steel lubrication has a lot of merit. I also think Ca sulfonate is worth a go, too, but not as #2 grease, and not with any other thickener except wax and molydisulfide.

Gear

[felix]

There is a very slight bearing on this thread, R5R. Magnesium (stearate) will make any Alox additive which is customary for us to use and mix in become very a sticky glue and drop to the bottom of the cooking pot. This is a very good way to eliminate the Alox component out of a 50-50 type that we may be attempted to add to the lub mix. ... felix

[felix]

Be careful on the amount of any calcium, and magnesium for that matter, Gear. These components will make the fired lube build up quickly into the rifle grooves. The same happens with using some of these military powers, especially with 844, when using a fabricated lube without these two elements. ... felix

[btroj]

So the Mg stearate may not be a good way to go? Last thing we want is a buildup in the grooves, that can't help accuracy any.
I am not suprised that Ca and Mg behave in a similar manner being in the rpsame family on the periodic table.

I will need some time but plan to try the "soap" recipe Gear sent me. Not a difficult to make lube but the heat involved isn't for the faint at heart.

[geargnasher]

Yes, calcium stearate is the junk that makes the burnt dinosaur extract called Alox into a sort-of lubricant. It also is why liquid Alox makes such a great undercoating, the heavy calcium soap content is highly resistant to water. One of the things I detest about Alox in boolit lubes of any sort is the tendency of the stuff to accumulate noticeably in as few as ten shots, then it just keeps building, requiring frequent cleanings to maintain accuracy. One of the things that turned me on to making my own lubes in the first place was to depart from Alox. I can see how magnesium could do the same thing, but the question is would it accumulate like the calcium does if combined in a lithium and sodium matrix. The shape and form of lithium and sodium soap grease are very different, and magnesium is supposed to be a smooth, dense grease as opposed to the stringy, fibrous sodium and the spongy lithium.

When I mentioned calcium, I was talking about the sulfonate, like is used in Mobil Centaur grease. That thickener is a totally differnt animal as far as bearing lubrication goes, the thickener itself slips and slides on itself like moly disulfide, so it really doesn't need any EP additives to be an EP grease, the thickener does it all. I wonder if it would accumulate the same as calcium stearate?

I know many papers have calcium stearate, clays, and talc in them for fillers and gloss-ifiers and that might be what's responsible for the shiny bores that paper jackets tend to create. Perhaps the particles fill the pits in the barrel but the tough cellulose fibers keep it scrubbed clean each shot so it doesn't build.

I'm still going to at least try the "tri-stearate" grease at some point, I don't see it as something that would be impossible to remove from a gunbarrel.

Gear

[runfiverun]

bruce mentioned making a lith stearate, pao, grease in a p.m. he sent me.
if he can get a sample of the lith stearate.
unfortunately it sounds like the smallest amount available would be a 50 lb sack.

100-150 grs [@ 3 tsp] would be enough to make about 10 oz's of lube [9-10 sticks] from 6oz's thickened lithium greases
and the base waxes [4oz's] plus 1 oz soy wax [not needed],and a table spoon full of mineral spirits, and hto binder added.
using this [E-purple] formula [the evolved E-yellow] i have been trying it in some new tests,
visc is easily modified with either more/less base wax,or leaving out/adding more of, the soy wax or white lith, or both.
there is a lot of room in this one for summer- winter- north- south visc changes without changing the basic ingredients.
the base waxes [hard micro-wax/b-wax 50/50] can be juggeled to suit the visc needed, obviously. since they are only about 40% of the lubes make-up,this is a fairly soft,flexible lube.
you twist a piece off not break a piece off.

but it has done very well in the 44 mag levergun with 24" bbl and has made the jump across the cylinder gap in the revolver with no drama.
i need to pick a rifle to test it in next.

[popper]

FYI -http://www.mediafire.com/?zjxj07in8dqitcg Pretty good (lab) test data for common lubes.