"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[geargnasher]

Why do we need a higher drop point than Lithium Stearate provides? I realize I'm way behind the curve; however, I think I've found a source of Lithium Stearate.

MJ

We don't. Lithium stearate is fine, but there are only a handful of block greases in existence anymore, and I was going for the hardest one with the most thickener content I could get, purely for the thickener itself. The lithium complex from Opti-lube has the most-est, at around 20%. The first sample of lithium stearate grease I got, an NLGI #6, is not as hard as you might think, thickener content was 12-15% I believe. It's just a hair firmer than peanut butter when you mash it around a bit.

Now, if you found some lithium stearate, you da man, because all I found was some goofy abstract on the web about two guys from indonesia or somewhere who came up with the concept of making lithium stearate and complexes avialable as an independent product to thicken existing grease. I wants some, because I have just the stuff to add to it. Throw about 12-15% in with some Mobil 1 #2 and you have something ready to shoot.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Was it BAERLOCHER USA?

Check this out: http://www.baerlocher-usa.com/en/hom...ali-stearates/

The Holy Grail of grease thickener suppliers.

Gear

[runfiverun]

lithium is the stuff.

i have had the best luck so far hot/cold with white lithium grease.[it is quite stable in temp swings i have worked with it at -40]
the neatsfoot oil will most likely do much better than atf at what we want also.

after looking at what i put together last night it is still very hard this morning but no bleed out
or anything but is a little too hard for my needs.


would just a white lith grease/pao oil/neatsfoot oil [75/20/5] thickened enough with a stearate [@ 20%] to flow through a lubrisizer
at say 60* with 50 psi of air do what we want?

will the stearate get it thick enough to behave like a stick alone?

[felix]

This is a new page I found in somewhat layman's detail of what lube is all about. It is a must read for beginners in playing around. The downside is that extrapolation is required for making boolit lubes. ... felix

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

[geargnasher]

lithium is the stuff.

i have had the best luck so far hot/cold with white lithium grease.[it is quite stable in temp swings i have worked with it at -40]
the neatsfoot oil will most likely do much better than atf at what we want also.

after looking at what i put together last night it is still very hard this morning but no bleed out
or anything but is a little too hard for my needs.


would just a white lith grease/pao oil/neatsfoot oil [75/20/5] thickened enough with a stearate [@ 20%] to flow through a lubrisizer
at say 60* with 50 psi of air do what we want?

will the stearate get it thick enough to behave like a stick alone?

Aluminum stearate and lithium stearate are not compatible thickeners. If your white grease is a lithium-gelled grease, yer screwed unless you can get some lithium stearate or complex powder. The other thing I kept seeing is the aluminum stearate in high concentrations makes a thick, but very sticky grease. I mean REALLY sticky.

Gear

[felix]

Aluminum stearate in a lube provides a quasi hard, non-sticky coating over the boolit after it "cures" within the lube. Maybe a month? Perhaps less. It's downfall is the negative compatibility with several additives as Gear indicated, and most especially the drop in final lube ph. However, its strong advantage is its lead coagulation to itself within the barrel. ... felix

[runfiverun]

i'll have to check the ph on my E-yellow.
i can control the ph fairly easily with household additives,or the ph neutralizer i have on hand.
i'd be worried under a 4, or over a 9.
it should be pretty mellow with only 5% aluminum stearate.
that was one of my concerns on amounts of additives and overshooting the mark, was how it would play out over time.

the pao and b/wax thing is killing me, i am over trying any more of that.

this is seriously educational on what has and has not worked for me so far, the link felix posted is a handy reference.
i know we have thrown a lot of ideas around,some we have tried and some are just that, ideas. [good bad whatever]

but we have narrowed down a lot of what don't work.

[geargnasher]

The good info just keeps pouring out! At this point, I'm going to try to clarify my end of this, and what I've decided to try now I've learned some things.

Having a better idea of what lube has to do now, I'm working my formulations to test a couple of theories regarding lubricity, viscosity, and bore film.

Buzzing Pegasus lube: I've discovered that Mobil 1 lithium complex grease can be reduced of oil content through osmosis to a thick paste, like peanut butter, and shot as is. I also discovered that it needs something else to keep it from over-lubing the bore, so back to waxes. Beeswax works great with the reduced grease, only about 25-30% wax is needed. Bore prep with grease before shooting absolutely eliminates clean-barrel flyers, and the reduction of both wax and oil content seems to have elminated those pesky purge flyers that I experienced with regular lithi-bee in the past. Keep in mind I've only tested at 60-80 degrees so far. This is a good way to go I think, and certainly deserves more testing at low temp and high temp. Version two of this is going to involve some high-melt-point microcrystalline wax. I really don't think it will need much else, unless the base oil viscosity needs a bit of tweaking with zero-weight engine oil or synthetic gear oil. My concept of this lube is that it will leave a PAO oil film in the barrel that won't evaporate as readily or harden like conventional oils will, and that the film will be more consistent thickness with temperature due to the high VI of the lube oil in the grease. The wax and lithium complex work together like a sponge to give the right amount of oil to the moving surfaces at the right time, and the beeswax gives the "melting" part of the base which can change the viscosity of the lube toward the muzzle. The low wax content will hopefully reduce "sludging" of the bore, and affect overall viscosity less when cold.

Neon Zombie Lube: Back to PAG experiments. I like PAG for many of the reasons I outlined in other posts, but I'll recap. Many of the PAG oils used in automotive air conditioning systems have very high VIs, inherent extreme-pressure properties (superb film strenth characteristics), excellent oxidation stability, low fluid friction, it acts as a solvent, and burns really clean when forced to burn. Zombie lube uses a form of PAG ester that is less susceptable to water absorption than many of the PAG formulations. My line of thinking here is that the stuff is basically a temperature-insensitive, high speed, EP lube with very high solvent characteristics, and will help with the "minimalist approach" to bore fouling and seasoning. I'm hoping I can develop a formula based on this PAG oil that will essentially be a bore scrubber, cleaning the barrel each shot, so you start with a clean barrel with perhaps a prep with just a hint of the oil, and each shot will purge the same because of the low viscosity and self-cleaning attributes of the oil. The challenge here is to find the right "vehicle" for this lube. It works pretty well with beeswax, making a low-tack, amazingly accurate lube, but again I've only tested it for 20-shot and fewer strings in mild weather. I think it will work better with a petroleum microwax than beeswax, but since I'm more often wrong than right with lube theories, who knows. The other option would be so use PAG grease thickened with lithium soap. Such grease exists in several brands in a #1 and #2 grade, but the PAGs are higher viscosity and the grease itself needs a lot of stiffening to be practical. I'm going to try just the BG PAG oil an microwax next, and see if it needs any other additives or modifiers to make it work.

Greenie lube: Soy based. Using hydrogenated soybean oil as a base, and modifying it to maintain "slickness" at a broader temperature range and firmness in the heat is the idea. Soy oil has a very high EP capability in and of itself, the trick will be to make it's hydrogenated version not melt in the heat and not gum in the cold. I believe that additives such as Vybar, hard microwax (in quantities less than 5%), and some of the other candle hardening additives will take care of the melting problems, and neatsfoot oil and sulfur ester will help with slickness at high velocity and in the cold. The sulfur and neatsfoot should also help leave a nice, durable "season" in the barrel. I think, anyway. Other natural oils like Jojoba, castor (oil and wax), peanut, Can-Ola oil, etc. might have their place too, and maybe even some of that HTO stuff I call synthetic lard that Bruce sent.

Every one of these will have to be formulated to work in a typical sizer, stay on the boolit during handling, survive the intitial transition of the boolit into the rifling, do it's "thing" in the barrel, and fling off at the muzzle, and it has to do that from 0-110 degrees F and not melt off or weep oil into the powder. The formulas also have to be made or modified to not rust or damage lube tools, barrels, brass, or boolits in storage. I believe if the lube accomplishes these things, it will allow the accuracy we desire. A lube doesn't "make" a launching platform more accurate in my mind, it has a job to do that is inherently detrimental to accuracy as a side effect, so the best lube will be one that has the least negative impact on the accuracy potential of the system.

I hope some of this made sense!

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

...Now, if you found some lithium stearate, you da man, because all I found was some goofy abstract on the web about two guys from indonesia or somewhere who came up with the concept of making lithium stearate and complexes avialable as an independent product to thicken existing grease.

Gear

Gear,

I'll need to get back to the guy who responded to my email. He said today that there's none in stock. The company is Antec, Inc. located in Louisville, KY.

I only asked for a pound which probably didn't get him very excited. Shall I ask for more assuming there's enough interest here?

Antec sent me a free sample of Na-Stearate a couple years ago that was probably 2 oz. or more.

P.S. FWIW: I'll be getting prices for 500g and 1Kg quantities of Sodium Stearate.

MJ

[bruce381]

Should I call about some Lith thickener from BAERLOCHER?
bruce

[runfiverun]

please...
i think dealing with lith complexes is gonna be very,very good.
using the stearate to control the additive [grease] viscosity will help immensely..
finding different grades of lith complex greases from #1 up to wheel bearing grease is easy enough.
but getting it further along the visc scale will allow the carrier percentage to be lowered,and different lots of beeswax/microwax can be manipulated easier.
once that can be controlled,then the final low visc oil can be used.

[geargnasher]

Should I call about some Lith thickener from BAERLOCHER?
bruce

Oh heck yes, PLEASE! Nothing like a man with real connections. I've been pulling my hair out trying to make a lithium/pao grease thick enough to use by itself. I've come really close, figuring a way to pull some of the oil out of Mobil 1 using a sort of redneck osmosis, but it would be so much easier to just warm it up straight out of the tube and add another 15-20% thickener. Thick Mobil 1 has shown a LOT of promise at the shooting range.

I like this concept because the more thickener that's in it, the less sticky it becomes, which is good for lube jettison. I think I've had as much trouble with that as I have with consistent purge or clean/cold barrel flyers.

I got some NLGI#6 lithium complex block grease with around 20% lithium complex thickener, a high percentage of heavyweight hydrocracked oil, and a smaller percentage of lower-viscosity paraffin oil, and it's almost good enough to use by itself, but it leaves no real room for adding higher VI lube oils or synthetic #2 greases like I'd hoped.

Gear

[runfiverun]

you already have the heavy mineral oils,some more parrafinic wax [micro] is nothing.[carrier for the lighter oils]
now you see why i added the m/s in the last go-round [plasticizer]
between that and the hto,some good binding took place.
now i need to find the hot/cold balance.

[popper]

On the subject of lube pumping, my gross calc show that a grain of lube in a 30 cal @ 2000 fps gives about 50 grains force on the bbl. Also surprised by the amount of lube required to coat a 24" bbl .0005 thick. Gear's experience with lubing just the back grove indicates that 'pumping' pressure is not high enough to lube much of the front of the CB. Probably the same reason crayon lubes don't work well - never get pushed to the bore to melt.

[geargnasher]

Nope, it isn't, and it had better not be pumping out of the back groove or you'll have gas leaks across the bearing surfaces. The front part of the boolit, I think, relies on the film from the previous shot, which is probably thinner than five "tenths". This is a contributing factor to our first-shot flyers, the lube film the first boolit encounters going down a cold barrel has to be the same as from the last shot fired from the barrel, warm. Either the lube film must be durable in storage, or we must find a way to replace it before shooting if we want to elminate the "warm up" flyers. I've had some really good results so far doing a pre-condition with combination with particular lube formulas.

Gear

[popper]

I read someone's take on lube pumping, that it was the force on the back of the Cb that caused the CB to grow in diameter in the lube groove and force lube onto the bbl. That may be true, but the force on 1 grain of lube axially is .4 gr. vs the 50 gr. radial force, so CB spin and heat are what gets the lube out of the groove and onto the bbl. That radial force is almost non-existant at the muzzle, so no lube 'pumping' there(maybe why we run out of lube there). A .004 land cutting into a .02 deep groove doesn't do much for the lube either. If my memory is correct, the lube film under a piston ring is about .0005-.0001", but that may be large with newer lubes. The lead CB can't provide much heat for melting as the heat transfer rate of Pb is pretty poor. If crayola lube is so tough it can't be flung out there is no frictional heating and it doesn't lube. When the land cuts the front band, some lube could get pumped in front of the band. I wonder if a TL groove or lubed crimp groove would solve the cold bbl problem. Maybe that .0005 space and 35-50K psi will pump lube there anyway.

[runfiverun]

popper yeah/no.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...148746&page=12
look at post 234.
it'll give you some insight,pumping really don't take place, the back of the boolit may be deformed forward somewhat, but that's overwith pretty quiclky.

[popper]

Gear - I think you need the rapeseed(canola?) oil, not soy as oxidizes faster. R5R - I think we agree, 3 ways to get lube out of the groove. 1) squeeze it out - I don't think much of this happens. 2) fling it out - probable with soft lubes. 3) blow it out - probably what happens most of the time - gas flows around the CB and melts the lube(and lead) out and we get that black gunk in the bbl. 4th would be the lube fairy with an oil can, but I've never seen one. Bbl pressure is greatly reduced at the muzzle end so effects of 2&3 are reduced and lubing is reduced. Someone here mentioned that they think alox works by wiping the lube behind the CB (greases and waxes do that - your 'mushy' stage). Oils 'wet' the bbl like liquified greases and waxes. In all cases, there has to be some force to push the lube against the bbl. A marker won't leave ink on the paper until pushed against the paper. I'm just going through the physics of what happens, regardless of what the lube is. Your(and Gear's) efforts are to get a solid lube through the solid/mushy/liquid phases,as the liquid does the lubing. My effort has been to start with mushy and get to liquid. Just different goals.

[runfiverun]

not really, we have the same goals.
wet is wet whether from an oil,or whether the carrier turns that way [hopefully]
getting the carriers viscosity right to begin with will help immensly.
and swinging one way or the other is easy to do.
keeping the lube soft enough for the cold,with enough body to make it down the bbl when hot, is the issue.
we are looking for the middle ground with the lube and lowering the carrier[s] to the minimum.
by making the lube itself act as a carrier and the carrier act as a component rather than the main body.
i have gotten the carrier itself down in the 40% area.
my last effort has 60% lube and 40% carriers.
it may be 50-50 before its done with,but if we can get the lith stearate i should be able to get the carrier lower.
the carriers melt points are going to be key points also.

[leftiye]

Dry alox could be used as a carrier?