"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[runfiverun]

carnuba does just like it does to a floor.
it polishes and shines it leaves a smooth coating in the bbl
cool beans, right??
yeah kinda,it also oxidizes and dulls killing the first shot thing.


gear:
you will still need the glide [stage-1] the pao may do it,but i am unsure of it's lower temp ability right now.
i do think the pao might be a good substitute for castor oil though.
[a more traditional beeswax/pao/lanolin/atf or neatsfoot oil lube will have to be given a try at some point]
i think the lard oil or neatsfoot oil at 3/4 tsp per oz of my e-yellow will pull it off,
even with the b-wax content i have now.
i have had it sitting in temp swings from 30 to 80 so far with no bleeding or notable visc change but not in direct sunlight yet.

[geargnasher]

Yes, Carnauba wax is definetely out. I've been using regular beeswax as a modifier, 25-30 percent, with thickened lithium complex grease. The PAO lube oil is just a little bit thinner than castor oil at 100F, but doesn't thicken nearly as much in the cold. I haven't found decent compartable data for kinematic viscosity at 210F for both oils.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

...it also oxidizes and dulls killing the first shot thing.

How long does it take to oxidize?

...a more traditional beeswax/pao/lanolin/atf or neatsfoot oil lube will have to be given a try at some point...

Why add atf and a pao oil when there are synthetic complex greases available that do the same thing and are basically just thicker, no?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

...Perfect your boolit fit and find the proper alloy, then your lube problems become nil.

You betcha, boolit fit and proper alloy are paramount. I don't know about nil with respect to the lube issue though. I've got a few '06 loads that shoot under 1MOA... most of the year (assuming I don't change the bore condition).

I always shoot for group at the same time of day (9-10AM).

MJ

[geargnasher]

That all depends on whether or not you're using a grease thickener as a carrier, or using beeswax as a carrier.

Depending on the grease, no extra oil would be necessary at all, in fact, all the #2 greases have too low of a thickener/oil ratio to stay in the grooves very well when we need it to. The key is to use a grease that has the "right" oil to begin with.

In the case of my Zombie lube, I used only beeswax and low-viscosity PAG oil. Beeswax and synthetic, PAO ATF works too, and works little better if you add a bit of grease. Once you get more than about 25% grease, there's no need to have any additional lubricating oil present, although certain friction modifiers or EP additives can make a big difference.

I'm trying to use a high-thickener-content grease so I can use less wax. The metal soap is a more temperature-constant thickener than waxes, and I want a temp-stable lube dispersant mechanism. The lube oil itself might need to thin out as the boolit travels down the bore, but I don't want the carrier to go liquid unless it proves that it needs to. More testing will tell.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

...I'm trying to use a high-thickener-content grease so I can use less wax. The metal soap

Such as Sodium Stearate?

is a more temperature-constant thickener than waxes, and I want a temp-stable lube dispersant mechanism. The lube oil itself might need to thin out as the boolit travels down the bore, but I don't want the carrier to go liquid unless it proves that it needs to. More testing will tell.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Nope. Sodium Stearate sucks as a grease thickener, really. It absorbs water readily, in fact its hardness can change quite a bit with fluctuations in relative humidity. It also has low EP properties, and low temperature tolerance as thickeners go.

I'm using lithium and lithium complex thickeners due to temperature stability, pressure tolerance, and low oil bleed characteristics.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Nope. Sodium Stearate sucks as a grease thickener, really. It absorbs water readily, in fact its hardness can change quite a bit with fluctuations in relative humidity. It also has low EP properties, and low temperature tolerance as thickeners go.

I'm using lithium and lithium complex thickeners due to temperature stability, pressure tolerance, and low oil bleed characteristics.

Gear

In other words, Lithium Stearate? You did say metal soap.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Lithium stearate is one, lithium 12-hydroxystearate, or lithium 12-hydroxyoctadecanoate is the "complex" which has a higher drop point than the straight lithium soap.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the pao and atf have different viscosity's working in the bbl at different times,
and at different temps.
we have to concentrate on the outer edges of the lube, the middle will take care of itself.
even if we come up with the correct numbers as far as the stresses the lube will see, it most likely be defined at 70f.
we still have temp swings and bore condition to consider.
this is where the extraneous [wow big word there] oils will come into play whether they be synthetic or natural,or a refined of either.
the base being consistent over temp swings is still going to be the big hurdle.

[geargnasher]

the pao and atf have different viscosity's working in the bbl at different times, Are you sure about that? From what I've seen with oil blending for greases, the various oils behave as one, with one set of qualities. Bruce will know for sure.
and at different temps.
we have to concentrate on the outer edges of the lube, the middle will take care of itself. I sure agree with that based on experience.
even if we come up with the correct numbers as far as the stresses the lube will see, it most likely be defined at 70f. Or 210 or 104 and so on. Tough nut to crack anyway, since no one has a clue what the temperature of the lube film is between boolit and barrel just before muzzle exit.
we still have temp swings and bore condition to consider. IOW carnauba sucks!
this is where the extraneous [wow big word there] oils will come into play whether they be synthetic or natural,or a refined of either.
the base being consistent over temp swings is still going to be the big hurdle.

Two other people are sending me boolit lube samples to try, and I got another care package from Bruce which will take me into the "natural" lube realm again, the animal oils and the sulfur enhancer that works in conjuction with them to enhance film strength and wetting that makes a stronger boundry layer (paraphrasing some from the printed material) can take natural ingredients to a new level. These products also seem to work over a large temperature range looking at the specs, and work with PAO oils as well, so I'm encouraged.

Plenty of room for experimenting with soy wax, castor wax, and a touch of beeswax as bases with all these additives.

I also think we have in our possession the components for a hum-dinger of a black powder lube, don't you think?

Gear

[runfiverun]

yeah, it'd be the first time something was too slick for b/p.

i know that some atf's are pao's but it's like saying water is water.
i don't have any molecular proof.
but i bet money [heck, i'll go to chicago for you ] they are.
at least the ones i have in my posession do, the mercon and dexron behave differently than the pao when in the freezer.

[runfiverun]

hmm.
haven't thought about blending some pao and atf into one oil to see.
nowigottagotryit.

[geargnasher]

Went for a walk this evening to get away from the drywall dust for a bit, and got to thinking about all the commercial lube formulations out there. I wonder how many of them are based on a medium or high melt-point commercial microcrystalline wax?

"Crayon lube".

I'm wondering how well a modified Mike's Micro-Lithi would work with a high-temp micro and a percentage, say 25-50%, of Mobil 1 220 grease or Mobil Centaur? You get your microwax structure, your pliable lithium complex thickener, and your synthetic lube oil that's good from -40 to 300F all rolled into one? The PAO base lube oil in the Mobil 1 is just the ticket for what we need IMO. If not, we can always thin it with a genu-ine group IV PAO ATF, or, let's not forget about the PAO engine oils, particularly Mobil 1 engine oils, that are still made with PAO (and probably polyol esters and/or diesters, too) and not super-treated group II and III petroleum oils.

OR, since I'm blathering in print, how about a new Zombie lube with just microwax and the BG universal PAG oil? That PAG should be able to handle everything our application can throw at it regarding film strength, viscosity/temperature stability, and EP characteristics, plus it's a solvent too, and burns super-clean. I don't know about the microwax being clean-burning, probably not, but my original line of thinking with the PAG (and why I made the Zombie lube in the first place), was that it is self-cleaning and didn't seem to need much help from anything else as far as the film part of boolit lube goes. Plus it has a high VI. All-weather performance, thin film but with high strength, and potential for very consistent purging shot-to-shot.

When one starts piling in the additives, particularly solids, with these clean synthetic oils, I'm thinking this only contributes to buildup/purge issues. Maybe carrier + lube needs to be explored some more.

Does anyone have any experience with the high-melt-point microwaxes? MJ and I would be much abliged for some good information here.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i still have about 10-12 sticks of magma's red on the shelf.
and some original saeco green too.
i wish you'd stop this....
allright the atf and pao mixed together pretty well, and didn't thin out like i thought it would.
it also took some lard oil just fine.
so i mixed three tbs atf two of the pao and one of the lard oil
with 10 oz's of b-wax.
as it cooled i added i tbs lanolin, then promptly spilled it on the workbench.
luckily i caught some of it in the cup some all over my hand,and most of it went in the wax paper lined cookie sheet where it was gonna go anyway.
i cleaned up the rest and looked at what i had.
nothing good.
it was too hard, so i tried again,i melted it down and added the atf,pao and lard oil again.
but no more lanolin.
it's a little softer now and does give up a little oil when i rub my finger across it with some pressure.
it may need a little modifier to soften it some.
i'll let it sit and see how it does

[geargnasher]

Oh, I could do this all night! I just wrote down a half-dozen formulas to try for natural lubes (including soy, castor, and coconut wax bases hardened with small amounts of hard microwax candle hardeners), with various additive packages of the lard, neatsfoot, HTO, and sulfur ester, not to mention about as many formulas using a high micro-wax content ranging from Zombie Lube #2, to Pinko-commie lube subbing microwax and synthetic ATF/grease, to the aforementioned MML with high temp wax and synthetic grease. I made notes for all the theory behind why I think each on might work. Oh, well, keeps me out of bars.

For your fresh beeswax experiment, why not use some of that sulfur ester oil? it's a companion additive to the EP fats, and also with HTO for imparting even better EP properties. Shouldn't take much, 2-3% probably.

Gear

[bruce381]

ZDDP (zinc di thio di alkyl phosphate ) will form a tough film on metal so tough it will resist wear and that is what protects a camshaft lobe and lifters from wear in older pushrod engines. Maybe it will form a non liquid metal film in a barrel?
will send some

[runfiverun]

thanks again bruce.


i thought about the sulpher esters for a minute then went with the lard oil because of the b-wax.
i almost used some of my last soy candle too.
but i still have a bunch of o.d. lube to test in the heat.
i am kinda trying to isolate what it is thats adding the crumbly hardness when b-wax is added to the synthetics.
this mix had almost that feeling [and i thought it was the pao] but i could tell it was more the semi gritty feeling of the atf.
i'll watch it for a day or so, i can always add another batch to it or another softener for more softness and flex.
i now have 5 wait 6 different lubes sitting around that needs long term shooting tests.

the lard,neatsfoot,and sulpher ester modified E-lube is nice and soft/flexible still, with no bleeding.
this E-lube is gonna be hard to beat,and the modified version is looking pretty good too.
and really is simple to make.
the modified is slightly softer than my winter lube, and made with less beeswax, so i need to get some hot weather shooting done with it.

i'm kinda worried i am getting the proportions correct on these lubes, it's pretty hard to judge whether i need 5% or 15% for some of these additives.

[Marlin Junky]

Lithium stearate is one, lithium 12-hydroxystearate, or lithium 12-hydroxyoctadecanoate is the "complex" which has a higher drop point than the straight lithium soap.

Gear

Why do we need a higher drop point than Lithium Stearate provides? I realize I'm way behind the curve; however, I think I've found a source of Lithium Stearate.

MJ

[geargnasher]

.....i am kinda trying to isolate what it is thats adding the crumbly hardness when b-wax is added to the synthetics....

It do get crumbly. I think I know the deal with synthetic ATF and beeswax, though. The ATF has a PAO base, which doesn't take additives well. So stuff has to be added to make it take all huge additive load that's dumped into it so it can tolerate being ATF. This includes a ton of dispersants, surfacants, friction modifiers, etc. which probably have the effect of destroying some of the things that hold beeswax together. The same thing happens when adding Mobil 1 grease straight out of the tube, part super-sticky, part crumbly, and it never quite smoothes out. Reduce the oil content of the grease, and reduce the amount of beeswax, and it works fine.

I'm still mystified by what happened with the heavy PAG oil Bruce sent and beeswax, it was like the PAG chemically cooked the wax and pulled out a bunch of the gelatinous glues, leaving a purified, hard, plastic-like wax behind. The BG universal PAG oil blended in fine, I wonder if it has an ester oil percentage too that helps it be compatible with the wax and other AC oils. The Zombie lube was far less crumbly than just syn ATF and beeswax.

Gear