"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Grump]

Has this discussion moved elsewhere?

Seems like we were quite close to Mission Accomplished. SL-68-B (beeswax added?) didn't do so well in the cold, right? From the other thread my understanding is that SL-68 original unmodified passed all cold weather just fine and was okay up to 95° F and now needs just some confirming over multiple firearms and a check into the 110° F realm.

Has anyone looked into a blend of heavy petroleum stuff to replicate that dandy "Navy Wax" that's gots no beeswax innit? It would be REALLY nice to have two Extreme Lubes.

[runfiverun]

we dug down into the wax, and it turned out to be something more than we thought it for sure does not contain any bees-wax.
it is a few long strand carbon chain waxes mixed together, they end up having a super high melt point which is what is essentially what the lube needs for everything to blend together into a proper matrix.
what this means is that more research is needed.

in the mean time the sl-68 [.1] is a good lube that the hot weather guy's are having good luck with.

[Grump]

Hope mentioning StarMetal doesn't step too hard on anyone's nerves...

Since the boil-point test on the now-Unobtanium "Navy Wax" points to a mixture of long-chain hydrocarbons, I have not heard anything about attempting to replicate it... I suspect that the entire performance mix of that stuff might be OBtainable with fewer than the exact same mix of the whole ball of wax. Pun intended. No I won't apologize for one that fits so well.

Anyway, I just searched for the dominant ingredient by volume, tricosane, for sale and quickly found that these guys sell it: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...g=en&region=US. Haven't poked around yet to see how big of a bottle of 99% pure stuff you get for that $25.80 or whatever.

NOT hazardous per MSDS (my smart-alec son says that's outdated, they are now just Material Data Sheets...) http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/MSDS/MSD...50%3Flang%3Den.

Shall I start pricing out maybe 3-4 of the highest-content hydrocarbons in "Navy Wax" in my (hahahah) spare time?

PLEASE someone say you're already on it!!!!

Remember, StarMetal Lube is as far as I recall the first-ever lube to pass all the "Extreme" performance criteria. This Quest was started in part because no source of Navy Wax disqualified it from the easy (enough at least) to find ingredients criteria.

[leftiye]

I for one don't care about easy or cheap to obtain. If it is what one needs to accomplish a worthy or necessary goal, then you do what is necessary......... or you fail. That's how it works.

[Oreo]

I agree completely, BUT....

The link R5R posted with the stuff for sale shows 1gm for $25 and 5gm for $50.

Try these guys instead:
(about 3/4 down the page they list tricosane for sale by the kg, no prices or links. Someone will have to make a phone call.)
http://www.jbwax.com/Products.html

Still searching...

[runfiverun]

keep up the good work, the search is not something I'm good at.
and it burns up a LOT of free time. [oh my god does it burn up time]

but I think if we could put together the three main players we could modify them with some shorter chained stuff to make up the difference.
it's just getting the stuff from point A into hand in a re-duplicatable process that is the ticket.

[fivefang]

I admire all of you for testing various lube components,I also have done some testing,the "paper -patch" keeps cropping up!just a thought,has anyone using paper-dust mixed into the lube ? if so in what proportions? Fivefang

[runfiverun]

we done some testing of paper and such quite some time back.
even cellulose was given a try.
we have a lot more 'additives' in the book, but this wax thing is the big deal right now.

[Grump]

Um, just what was the melting point of the blend now known as "Navy Wax"?

The most dominant ingredient, tricosane (C23H48), is supposed to melt at only 49 degree Celsius = 120.2 degree Fahrenheit.

The heaviest Alcane with a listed melt point in the Wikipedia article is Dotetracontane (C42H86), 86 degree Celsius = 186.8 degree Fahrenheit.

Now based on experiments my Dad and I did on a black motorcycle fender exposed to the mid-day sun at 105° F or so, I'm pretty sure that Tricosane by itself would NOT do it for an Extreme lube... The one we cooked up that month cannot be duplicated, for lack of notes I should have taken, but it involved a moly wheel bearing grease and a greenish, waxy band saw lube I have asked about in another thread. NO IDEA how it would have worked in cold weather. Pretty sure that all Dad had to do was heat and stir...and I'm pretty sure there was no beeswax in it. I think.

[runfiverun]

bees-wax would lower the melt point of some of these waxes.

we still ain't sure if it's a mix of the waxes or the long strands of carbon doing the work here, but the waxes ability to take heat without burning is what we want more than the melt point.

[Grump]

Hey, trying to locate the chart of the Navy Wax boil point testing...

Are ALL of the spikes in that curve suggesting of only straight-chain paraffin type alkanes, or is there a chance that the mix also contains some of the branched-chain stuff?

I guess none of this matters if the mix of ?one? paraffin and ?one? micro-wax in the [original?] SL-68 replicates the performance of Navy Wax well enough. Tracking down some thread posts here and there and elsewhere on that subject and the SL-68 "tweaking" has me all confused with the -1, the -B (beeswax added, for all its production complications) maybe a second 1 as a .1 and maybe even a .2 if one variation wound up being even worthy of a name.

Am I remembering all this correctly (haven't dug up all the posts) in believing that only the original SL-68 has been truly successful in all temps and up to 2200 fps?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Hey, trying to locate the chart of the Navy Wax boil point testing...

Are ALL of the spikes in that curve suggesting of only straight-chain paraffin type alkanes, or is there a chance that the mix also contains some of the branched-chain stuff?

I guess none of this matters if the mix of ?one? paraffin and ?one? micro-wax in the [original?] SL-68 replicates the performance of Navy Wax well enough. Tracking down some thread posts here and there and elsewhere on that subject and the SL-68 "tweaking" has me all confused with the -1, the -B (beeswax added, for all its production complications) maybe a second 1 as a .1 and maybe even a .2 if one variation wound up being even worthy of a name.

Am I remembering all this correctly (haven't dug up all the posts) in believing that only the original SL-68 has been truly successful in all temps and up to 2200 fps?

I can't really answer your questions, and I don't suspect anyone who is regularly reading this thread "currently", can either.

But I can tell you the following:

Regarding SL68B.
I'll try to explain myself here, but first must qualify myself, that I don't know the chemistry and can't explain all the Long chain, straight-chain, branched-chain theories ...and I am not on a quest to re-create or simulate Navy wax.

What I started out doing when I first posted of making SL68 (no suffix), was to try a Lube that Geargnasher mentions in the "Quest" thread, that worked good at normal temperatures as well as in the Texas Heat and he hoped would work in the Cold as well...and Eutectic tested to temps I wouldn't be shooting in
Here is one of his reports:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...54#post3069554
...AND... would function in a lubesizer WITHOUT HEAT...and also wouldn't migrate from the boolit to the powder when subjected to 'Hot car in the Sun' temperatures.

Onto "my tweeking" of original SL68 to SL68B:
It started out as a way to 'stretch' out my microwaxes, that I had onhand and to make a more uniform mix on a batch to batch basis. I had discussions with Gear and others (Here and on other forums), that a more complex Wax (which Navy wax seems to be), would be better than a wax that isn't complex. So mixing bits of what I had onhand, all of a sudden seemed liked a great idea. That is what I did, the 3rd time I made this lube and then retitled it SL68B. I used a blend of the 3 different microwaxes I had onhand, as well as beeswax. Beeswax just has some magical properties, that I (and others) think will be good in a boolit lube, even if the percentage is small, which in the case of this recipe, is 5%. Now it's tricky to blend Beeswax into a liquid that is 460º, when beeswax scorches at 320 or 360 (I don't recall exactly), but StarMetal suggested to premelt the beeswax before adding, then crash cool it, that process was successful.

OK, with all that said. no one else has tested my version, and no one else probably will. But for my intents and purposes, it "is" identical to the original. For my shooting, it's been the cat's Meow, I'll continue to test it...which may take years. I like how the lubesizer applies it. Yes it is on the soft side, but when handling boolits, it stays in the grooves and has a greasy/hand lotion feel, It is not sticky like most Beeswax based Lubes and doesn't built up in my fingers or seating die while reloading. Another "feature" I reported about it, it shoots clean in revolvers...doesn't grease up the outside of my gun, like beeswax based lubes generally do.

When I get my 30-06 back from the gunsmith, I have plans to do more testing and posting of that gun's use with SL68B on the TLC312-160-2R.
Jon

PS:
I think it was mentioned more than once, that some here would consider buying some of this lube. I can say, "I will never be making this for the purpose of selling it" ...and I can only guess that no one else will either, because of the process of cooking/blending it. I can only imagine making successful batches of this on a small scale with normal household lube cooking tools. Of course, there are those who are much smarter than me who may figure out how to easily make large batches of this lube, successfully.

[gondwana]

I can't really answer your questions, and I don't suspect anyone who is regularly reading this thread "currently", can either.

But I can tell you the following:

Regarding SL68B.
I'll try to explain myself here, but first must qualify myself, that I don't know the chemistry and can't explain all the Long chain, straight-chain, branched-chain theories ...and I am not on a quest to re-create or simulate Navy wax.

What I started out doing when I first posted of making SL68 (no suffix), was to try a Lube that Geargnasher mentions in the "Quest" thread, that worked good at normal temperatures as well as in the Texas Heat and he hoped would work in the Cold as well...and Eutectic tested to temps I wouldn't be shooting in
Here is one of his reports:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...54#post3069554
...AND... would function in a lubesizer WITHOUT HEAT...and also wouldn't migrate from the boolit to the powder when subjected to 'Hot car in the Sun' temperatures.

Onto "my tweeking" of original SL68 to SL68B:
It started out as a way to 'stretch' out my microwaxes, that I had onhand and to make a more uniform mix on a batch to batch basis. I had discussions with Gear and others (Here and on other forums), that a more complex Wax (which Navy wax seems to be), would be better than a wax that isn't complex. So mixing bits of what I had onhand, all of a sudden seemed liked a great idea. That is what I did, the 3rd time I made this lube and then retitled it SL68B. I used a blend of the 3 different microwaxes I had onhand, as well as beeswax. Beeswax just has some magical properties, that I (and others) think will be good in a boolit lube, even if the percentage is small, which in the case of this recipe, is 5%. Now it's tricky to blend Beeswax into a liquid that is 460º, when beeswax scorches at 320 or 360 (I don't recall exactly), but StarMetal suggested to premelt the beeswax before adding, then crash cool it, that process was successful.

OK, with all that said. no one else has tested my version, and no one else probably will. But for my intents and purposes, it "is" identical to the original. For my shooting, it's been the cat's Meow, I'll continue to test it...which may take years. I like how the lubesizer applies it. Yes it is on the soft side, but when handling boolits, it stays in the grooves and has a greasy/hand lotion feel, It is not sticky like most Beeswax based Lubes and doesn't built up in my fingers or seating die while reloading. Another "feature" I reported about it, it shoots clean in revolvers...doesn't grease up the outside of my gun, like beeswax based lubes generally do.

When I get my 30-06 back from the gunsmith, I have plans to do more testing and posting of that gun's use with SL68B on the TLC312-160-2R.
Jon

PS:
I think it was mentioned more than once, that some here would consider buying some of this lube. I can say, "I will never be making this for the purpose of selling it" ...and I can only guess that no one else will either, because of the process of cooking/blending it. I can only imagine making successful batches of this on a small scale with normal household lube cooking tools. Of course, there are those who are much smarter than me who may figure out how to easily make large batches of this lube, successfully.

Great explanation & post. From someone who still has not decided whether or not he should make his own lube or just stick with LBT, I say, Thank you for the clear explanation.

[runfiverun]

Lube making does not have to be complicated.
this thread is taking the compounds down into their very basic components and building things back up again.

lube can be made from simple ingredients like grease and bees-wax, and work for nearly everything within a 60-70-f window without issue.
it's past that window on both ends that you either need to modify the lube [one way or the other] or use a different lube.
many of us modify the one lube we mainly use for that one or two rifles that we use when it's cold [hunting] or super hot [hunting varmints or targets]
or use 2 completely different lubes above and below @50-60-f.
or some {AHEM} have a few different sizers and a few different specialty lubes [and loads] for various situations.

but a lube like Ben's red, my simple lube, or even some wheel bearing grease and wax [with atf for the 'winter' and carnuba for the 'summer' users] will suffice for 90% of the real world cast boolit users.

[Grump]

I drove through Fallon tonight.

If I were wearing one, I would have tipped my hat when passing the Naval Air Station. I've wondered for months though--if the speculated use of "Navy Wax" was as filler in artillery shells and/or other HE munitions, why did it come out of Fallon instead of Hawthorne???

[runfiverun]

airc it was surplus.
who knows how what gets shipped where within the system of the military.
they could have been using it to caulk toilets or fill holes in Quonset huts.

[Bigslug]

So. . .in trying to piece things together between a couple hundred of pages on several threads. . .

Has the Luber Party stalled their wagons in a mountain pass and resorted to cannibalism or something? Is SL-68.1 the path to Nirvana? If so, how do we cook the stuff? Is the secret of Navy Wax in a warehouse next to the Ark of the Covenant?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Bigslug, "YES", to all your questions,
regarding, how to cook?, I started a thread on that with photos (it's near the top of the list of threads in this forum).
Good Luck.
Jon

[Bigslug]

Well, yes, I'm familiar with that one, but do we have the straight up ingredients, quantities, and process all on one post?

It appears that the situation has not played out in a way that anyone is shouting "VICTORY!" from the rooftops. Let's not have a repeat of Arthur Dent's adventure:
"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display ..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

[runfiverun]

look at Jon's 68.1 thread.
so far that's the latest published recipe. [here]
there are others in testing and more stuff being tracked down and discussed.

this has been a long drawn out process with lots of dead ends and a lot learned about the older lubes and why/how they work.
the participation has been pretty minimal, apart from a few members [some of whom are dead now] which tends to slow things down even more.

the one major item has been and always will be the wax, oils we got coming out of our ears.
modifiers we got.
friction modifiers are simple to make from store bought ingredients.

look at the thread that recently started about some new special friction modifier, it's broken down and explained in 2 posts because of the quest thread.
I also put a way to make a better version of their wonder oil in the thread.