"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[geargnasher]

I think ya'll got it figured out well. Vaseline is very good, like you say, MJ. Think custom polymers, though, for the ultimate. If anyone should meet a bone-fide lube designer for real, tell him the specs needed, or shoot him to this board/thread. ... felix

I've tried to quantify the specs, I guess I don't understand it well enough to put it into terms a tribologist would understand. What would you say?

Following the Tribological system, we would need to quantify several things, mainly type of motion, speed, temperatures, load and the operating environment. Some specific things we'd need to determine would be linear speed (simple), load (figure both peak chamber pressure and the shear pressure of the side of the lands on the boolit engrave through the peak acceleration period, this would have to be a range due to different numbers of lands, land depth, twist rate, pressure/speed curve, and bore diameter) contaminants such as powder residue, and the full range of temperature the lube itself experiences, the oxidation requirements, evaporation requirements, and so on.

I stopped at step two, when I did a simple calculation on the surface speed of a boolit at 2K fps and compared it to the fastest speed-rating of any grease I could find, one that had a base viscosity of 50 cSt at 22C. IIRC the boolit exceeded the speed rating by over 20 times. Even straight oil at 5 weight on plain bearings with a 2" diameter journal at 10,000 RPM doesn't come close to the surface speed of a boolit near the muzzle of a high-powered rifle. Obviously we shoot lubes not technically rated for the speeds or surfaces involved, and it works sometimes, so there must be a lot more to it than I can understand.

Gear

[bruce381]

""If anyone should meet a bone-fide lube designer for real, tell him the specs needed""

What do you think I am chopped liver??

What specs??

All the things you ask for are based on guess's and idea's.

I have offered to get whatever samples any one wants but you have to very specifc, do you know how many syn wax's or PEG esters ther are countless.

You guys have all kinds of ideas that are all over the place no one other than me would have any interest in this cause there is NO comercial value No Lube engineer I know would waste time with this other than me where this is a personal hobby.

Ask 1 question at a time i will try to answer.


bruce

[bruce381]

by the way all the test samples MUST be shot to evaluate working or not varying additves or base oils etc will change performance with NO read across in that you cannot say this oil will be better than that oil. I have seen NO data base where additves or oils are classed as to what they do in a boolit lube with if there is one please send me a link
bruce

[geargnasher]

One thing this is NOT is straightforward from a layman's standpoint.

First, there's the issue of understanding the mechanics behind a sucessful boolit lube in a specific gun under specific conditions. I don't have a full understanding yet, and most "lube cooks" don't even have a clue. The few people who do have an inkling of this either keep mum because they're protecting their livelyhood, haven't found this site/thread, or don't feel like sharing. It's very difficult to gather any kind of empirical data here because we have no way to observe the activity inside a barrel at one million frames per second. Just being able to see a boolit exit the muzzle with different lube formulas at a high frame rate would provide huge amounts of insight, but the best we can do is secondary observation. Shooting through cardboard sheets at close range can give an idea of how the lube flings off (or doesn't), targets can tell us a little bit by group dispersion, bore condition after shooting tells us a little, but ultimately our understanding is only the result of interpreting clues rather than direct measurement like you can do with a four-ball test. It's the old "try it and see what happens" thing rather than measure, reference, calculate, compound, and test.

We know the lube has to go through a 1/8" hole under 40 psi at 70F. We know it has to stick to lead so we can lube and load boolits, but we also know it has to fling off completely at the muzzle (or stick forever). If we choose fling-off, we have to figure out what condition exactly it's in the moment the grooves pop past the muzzle crown, and figure the mass, radial velocity, and "adherence" factor. Once we do that, we need to determine what viscosity it needs to be within a 100-degree window before it's fired so it will survive in the grooves until the boolit is engraved, then figure how much it needs to thin out by the time it gets to the muzzle to match the speed requirements of the lead/steel interface. In order to do that, we must also know how much friction is taking place, how much film thickness we need, the specific heat of the lube, the melt rate of the lube, how long the boolit is in the barrel, how much force is exerted on the lands by the boolit, and so on. Heck, we're not even sure exactly WHAT film thickness works best, what viscosity exactly is needed at what point in the barrel, and if we did it would change when we move to the next gun. It's maddening to try to grasp from that perspective. The only way I can go about it is build on formulas that work, try to do some failure analysis, make educated guesses about how to fix it, and devise experiements to test those guesses. When one starts talking about long-chain polymers, I have no idea. I know that shear breaks them down quickly, but that's about it.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Is it even possible to "overcome" (for lack of a better word) the coefficient of friction between steel and a Pb alloy, shearing at 0-2500+ fps in its elastic state, hold back 30-40K PSI and release completely from the lube grooves at the muzzle... all this in a range of temperatures from below freezing to 120F? Sounds like a job for the paper patch.

What exactly is possible and what can realistically be produced?

MJ

[bruce381]

in industry animal (lard or tallow) are commom oil addtives to reduce friction, increaase slip and lower COF(coefficient of friction) as well as vegtable and seed oils.
5-10% will give good effect.

Oposite effect would be ZDDP (zinc di thio phosphate) same stuff as in motor oil and some greases, which will form a tuff/thick hard to remove film on steel and will increase COF

[geargnasher]

Is it even possible to "overcome" (for lack of a better word) the coefficient of friction between steel and a Pb alloy, shearing at 0-2500+ fps in its elastic state, hold back 30-40K PSI and release completely from the lube grooves at the muzzle... all this in a range of temperatures from below freezing to 120F? Sounds like a job for the paper patch.

What exactly is possible and what can realistically be produced?

MJ

If you find out, let me know. Bruce sent us some Lubrizol Syn HTO which is, as best I can describe it, a synthetic tallow. It's a long-chain polymer used to increase the pressure rating of cutting fluids and oils, basically an EP additive. Me playing with it without a graduate degree in polymer technology is akin to giving a monkey a Rolex, but it's fun to dink with this stuff!

MML is one example of something that works in low ambient temperatures. Felix lube, the original recipe, works very well in middle to high ambient temperatures, and isn't too bad in the cold once you get a shot or two down the barrel. There are others that work too, but none do it all that I've been able to test.

Gear

[runfiverun]

that just helped me immensely.

bruce:
the problem we have [me anyway] is i have no way to give those numbers.
if we were to target say 1900-2000 fps in a 10 twist bbl something like 130-140,000 rpm.
with 45k pressure behind it.
that really is all the information we can provide.
mainly because that is all we know.
we do need the lube to be able to go into a semi melted state from start to finish or to thin out as it goes down the bbl.
felix might be able, definately would be able, to give more specifics than the rest of us.

i am looking at what i know works.
the peramiters of what makes a good lube i laid out on page 12.
the lube i made is in post #150 it does work quite well
but i have only been able to test it in temperatures from 35 to 65 degrees.
and for one 100 shot group over an 8 hour period.
it so far has performed very well, as good as, or better than any other lube i have made or tried.
i really don't know any more than that.
my equipment is limited to a lab grade scale,a micro wave,two hand blenders,and a gas or electric stove.

i/we do really appreciate your help, but we aren't sure what information/feedback you need.

[popper]

Coefficient of friction in dynamic case is =viscosity*velocity/pressure of bullet ON the barrel. Stiction or low speed friction is high, then drops off pretty fast and increases with velocity. Lower COF is better. Lubes that shear (like PTFE aren't good at most any velocity). There must be enough pressure in the bbl (or centrifugal forces) to force the lube between the CB and bbl to keep lube there. The leading edge of the land is highest pressure, where the lube must not shear. Viscosity generally decreases with temp, but so does shear modulus. Whether or not the Pb can take the force is a different problem. It's obvious but my 2 cents worth.

[bruce381]

My take on this lube:

5% aluminum stearate [109 grns] weight
lube/gellant

5% of the binding wax [102 grns] weight
lube/gellant/viscosity modifier

1% of the cab-o-sil [20 grns] weight
gellant

1-1/2 tbs of the breox 1000 oil- volume
High Vi or low thinning effect when hot oil

1-1/2 oz's of the micro wax- weight
Base thickener to get correct sealing

5 oz's of white lithium grease [lubriplate assembly lube] weight
grease that is mostly oil so for barrel wetting/lube

what it you replace a small amount of the lith grease with tallow or lard?
and the balance with micro wax to bring thickness back up, lard or tallow will give far higher metal wetting and lower friction than a Lith grease

[bruce381]

Coefficient of friction in dynamic case is =viscosity*velocity/pressure of bullet ON the barrel. Stiction or low speed friction is high, then drops off pretty fast and increases with velocity. Lower COF is better. Lubes that shear (like PTFE aren't good at most any velocity). There must be enough pressure in the bbl (or centrifugal forces) to force the lube between the CB and bbl to keep lube there. The leading edge of the land is highest pressure, where the lube must not shear. Viscosity generally decreases with temp, but so does shear modulus. Whether or not the Pb can take the force is a different problem. It's obvious but my 2 cents worth.

I think the key is to have the same amount of lube film in the barrel all the time and the same at all temps. And have the lube on the boolit release or bleed the same amount of lube independant of temp.

[runfiverun]

I think the key is to have the same amount of lube film in the barrel all the time and the same at all temps. And have the lube on the boolit release or bleed the same amount of lube independant of temp.

that is definately the ultimate goal.


that is doable, will need to find lard without salt.

[bruce381]

"will need to find lard without salt"

i will send you some called prime burning lard also have lower pour point lard oil called neatsfoot also some sulfurized lard very good friction reduction and wetting. try all at 1-5%

a though is valve plug l;ube they come in very heavy grades much thicker than block grease and maybe a good way to qualitify a optimium thickness, some one posted here about them I do not know a source off hand.

[geargnasher]

Valve packing grease has definetely been in discussion, and I think the "J-lube" is one. Heavy, calcium-soap grease. The biggest problem here for me at least is suitable "carrier" or gellant without adding a wax. Heavy concentrations of gellants (such as we talked about with making a scratch-base gellant from lard and lye) show a lot of promise. Lubriplate makes a #6 lithium 12-hydroxy block grease that looks very interesting.

Neatsfoot oil might work well as an EP additive because it stays liquid at low temperatures.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the j-lube is one.
it's the one in the chemtec link i posted.
the moly sticks i use in my normal lube is a valve lube also.
i use the j-stick straight and tried mixing it with some white lith and some b-wax.
i am sure it works better straight.

bruce.
thank you.

[felix]

Yes, a wax with very small molecules which act as an oil in most respects with very high burning heat/light capability. Excellent skin care product, especially when covering water moist skin. Prolly not a good steel covering chemical because it can hold water like beeswax and some micro-paraffins. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Felix,

Yes, I was just thinking about jojoba oil (5% by weight) in a combination of hard waxes (BW-431/Beeswax/Carnauba) with Vaseline added to adjust viscosity (at least these components are relatively easy to obtain).

Is J-lube (mentioned earlier) a lube with jojoba?

MJ

[runfiverun]

no,it's synthetic with glycol solids [2% airc]
once it's pushed through the sizer it becomes softer than it's normal state.
and is almost like a #2 grease in the lube grooves, but adheres to the lube grooves better.
i wouldn't throw 500 of them in a box and shake it around, but 100 in a cup retains the grease no problem.

[shooter93]

Try bruce's neatsfoot oil Lamar....it can do good things for lubes.....maybe you've already tried it before. Linseed oil also...raw not boiled. Depending on the wax and other ingredients it can suprise you as to how it effects preformance.

[runfiverun]

i have enough aluminum stearate to make another batch of the engineer yellow lube.

changing some of it around with the lard oil would make it better for the winter.
without affecting the summer blend too much.

it could be what i was feeling was missing from the original batch,
it just didn't have quite the glide i usually get from my moly with the atf.

i have a feeling that 3-5% lard oil, and upping the binding wax another 1-3 % and not the micro-wax, could allow me to alter the beeswax content just a little bit.
if i could lower the beeswax to about 40-45% [another 5-10%] without having too much visc loss
and keep the lube from blowing out of the grooves in the throat i would be super happy.
we'll see how the oil works in the next batch.

i have the engineer yellow going through the sizer with a room temp of @65,and 60 psi now.
which is a lower temp but a slightly higher pressure than my moly.