"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[geargnasher]

But what was the lube?

Gear

[runfiverun]

sl-61.1

[geargnasher]

Ah. I figured Grump was on your mailing list.

Gear

[runfiverun]

still gathering information on that one.

[btroj]

Grump or the lube?

[Grump]

Okay, refresh my memory on these formulations--what are they?

SL-61.1
SL-61.2
TnT (more than one version yet?)

And just out of curiosity, what was the deal with Starmetal Lube?

Finally, TAC#1 seems to be barely okay for the really hot weather, as it can melt out and drip in the sun. Sounds like accuracy is great and it doesn't lead up to at least 2200 fps, right? But has anyone tested it in the cold? I'm quite happy with it in .45 ACP. And it doesn't stink up the ammo can like NRA 50/50!

When put on those .224s that RunFiveRun sent me, I don't notice any real odor from SL-61.1. Or are my senses just dull???

Thanks!

[runfiverun]

SL-61.1
is B-wax 4oz broken into chunks
Dr tranee assemblee goo 4oz [the green with the 130-f drop point]
ivory soap full 3.whatever oz bar
mineral oil 1.5 tbs
and castor oil 1.5 tsp
and heat, lots of heat [up to 450-f]
this locks everything up.
you add the b-wax after everything else is gelled, and stir it in off the heat.

SL-61.0 is 2 tbs and 2 tsp of the oils.
and everything else the same.


make it in a very,very well ventilated area, it will smoke and gas off.

[geargnasher]

61.0 was made with a 4.whatever oz big bar of Ivory. Way too much oil in it, strung vertically for all of us that tried it. It was made on very close proportions to Starmetal lube, problem is we can't duplicate Starmetal lube because we don't know what the wax is made of, and don't know the wax base he uses to make the "Vaseline". Some sort of paraffin he cuts with heavy mineral oil. All I know is it works.

The different versions of TnT lubes are being made and tested with soap and Maxima K2 ester, Mobil 1 0W-40 Mercedes diesel engine oil, and Motul ester oil. I've only tested the K2, it worked good enough to call it done, but the Motul didn't work so well below freezing for Eutectic. Not sure if it was the temp, the guns, or the oil. The Mobil oil did very well in the cold, but I haven't tested it in the heat yet.

Gear

[Eutectic]

but the Motul didn't work so well below freezing for Eutectic. Not sure if it was the temp, the guns, or the oil. The Mobil oil did very well in the cold, but I haven't tested it in the heat yet.

Gear

Just for orneriness, I loaded some .30-30's with the Motul TnT.
Now if you look at this barrel cross-eyed... it will lead! It not only didn't lead; it shot quite well! This Savage .30-30 also cold starts pretty high with conventional lubes but it didn't with Motul TnT. Not freezing temp but cool.. 35°

The Mobil 1 TnT seems to not like a week being idle in a dirty barrel as it throws the first couple out of the group before settling back down to very good performance.

TnT has a lot of merit for sure.... but it's different.. We just need to play with it more; both hot and cold; may need to add a small percent of something?

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

that's something me and Ian kicked around a little earlier today.
it needs something.
but what? a solid filler, or a powdered poly is something we discussed.
it sounds like it wants to rearrange those little even sized molecules around and create an uneven layer of leftovers after a bit of free time.

I also threw an adjustment at him for the SL lubes, just a bump-bang type thing.

[Grump]

Just saw the forecast and we're not officially getting above 85°F for the next week. &*%$#@!!!!! global warming!

It was close to 90 when I shot these, a BHN 14-16 alloy using TAC#1. Tinkered some accurizing with the Gov't Model build I've been working on and got a nice all the way inside the 10-ring size group at 50 yards!

This lube doesn't eject from the groove at all at 800-ish fps at the 20,000 ish (probably 16k, if I ran QuickLOAD on this one I totally forgot what the PMax was) range.

Was it Eutectic who explained lube ejection so well?

Has anyone tested SL-61.1 or later formulations in ordinary pistol velocities?

This also makes me wonder if some sticky at handgun velocity lubes might have an intermediate speed range where they don't reliably fling off and have crappy accuracy. My worst experience with commercial cast bullets was in, you guessed it, .45 ACP using some nice looking bullets with yellow lube which came out of the Navajo Lake area of UT IIRC. 6-inch or worse groups at 25 yards, pieces of lube on the target, recovered bullets had half-empty lube grooves, and they leaded the barrel too! But the alloy was hard as advertised. Think I used the last 50 of those as slingshot ammo.

I also wonder whether barrels longer than 5 inches give enough quantum of heat and enough time for that friction heat to transfer tot he lube, for a nice melt to reliably make almost everything eject from the groove...except I seem to remember reports from at least one of our high-altitude/cold spot people of lube boogers from rifles like .30-30.

Pretty sure most of us already have this stuff figured out. I'm just wanting to catch up with y'all.

[btroj]

I shot 61 from both a 44 mag SRH and in 45 ACP in a 1911.
No accuracy issues with either one.
I did get a strong Sb wash in the 1911 but it definitely didn't lead.

That family of lube is my new go to lube for handguns. Works very well and it isn't gonna get soft and runny at any temp I will shoot in.

[geargnasher]

SL 61 shot record groups in three of my handguns, including a 4" .45 ACP.

There isn't time for any formula of lube to melt, this is one thing we've learned. The surface might melt such as ice does under a skate due to pressure and heat friction, but the core of the lube won't melt in the barrel. Pressure can liquify a good lube, but won't do squat to a "crayon" lube.

The trick is to get a lube that will jettison at low and high velocities, regardless of lube groove shape or barrel length. To do that, you need a lube that's soft and not too sticky to begin with and goes liquid under pressure, even low pressure.

The SL series, particularly when made with paraffin, paraffin/microwax, Assemblee Goo, and no beeswax excelled at going liquid under pressure alone. Its Achilles' heel seems to be cold weather and a marked tendency toward vertical stringing in rifles at medium-to-high velocities in cold weather. I suspect the Assemblee Goo is simply too viscous in the cold, and so is what trace it leaves in the barrel (which is almost nil, but it seems to matter).

Speed Green and Lotak have a variety of problems, mostly weather and pressure related, one of the biggies is the Lotak's failure to jettison from big grooves in low velocity pistol rounds and Speed Green's wild flyers in extreme heat or during long, fast strings in very warm weather (my experience, for what it's worth anyway).

I really think the path to success is going to include a giant detour around the City of Waxes. I thought that several times before but kept giving up due to the mixed results I was getting with the stuff I was using at the time. I'm going to keep shooting the Ester TnT.

Gear

[runfiverun]

pressure can get a lube to go liquid. i proved that one out fully with the modified 45/45 lube by butting the boolit up against the rifling in the 45/70.
this would make the b-wax flow instantly leaving residue on the case and smoke from the barrel.
i did have to apply it pretty heavily to get it to show up, but show it did.

[Grump]

The trick is to get a lube that will jettison at low and high velocities, regardless of lube groove shape or barrel length. To do that, you need a lube that's soft and not too sticky to begin with and goes liquid under pressure, even low pressure.

So does the TAC#1 fall apart at rifle speeds by partially ejecting, or does it just all stay put up to some repeatable level?

The SL series, particularly when made with paraffin, paraffin/microwax, Assemblee Goo, and no beeswax excelled at going liquid under pressure alone. Its Achilles' heel seems to be cold weather and a marked tendency toward vertical stringing in rifles at medium-to-high velocities in cold weather. I suspect the Assemblee Goo is simply too viscous in the cold, and so is what trace it leaves in the barrel (which is almost nil, but it seems to matter).

Gear

As I understand it, doesn't SL-61.1 with lesser oil content do just fine down to at least the low 20s Fahrenheit?

The impression I had was that 61.1 needed only to be verified as performing at hot temps to be the first fully successful Extreme Lube. Did I miss something during the tail end of our cold weather testing?

Thanks!

[runfiverun]

the 61.1 only made it to the mid/low 30's.
everything just come along too late for true winter testing.
I have been looking over other recipes based on the SL lubes
and some poa visc modifiers.
the issues might be compatibility with some of the waxes.

Grump.
the whole thing is coming down to c.o.r.e, and the waxes, seriously.
I think we have a handle on the poe's and their residual affect on the barrel.
we are still gathering as much data as possible on the soap lubes so we can make better educated adjustments.
when you start working with new components like the goo or the soap you start messing with the molecular chain of the additive oils.
poe's are made from alcohols, carbon chains, napthenics, and de-fatted oils.
when we start adding them in with ester alcohols, monoester chains, hydro carbon chains, and other things like sodium stearate.
sometimes you have to find the proper proportions and sizes of stuff
to make them work just right.
brand-A and brand-B poe's [or amounts] can produce a different outcome just because they used a longer carbon chain or a different alcohol.

[grampa243]

sorry if this has been gone over before. i've only been able to read about 1/4 of the way thru this thread so far.

has anyone tryed or looked into using motor oil like full synthetic 0w-40? I was just thinking it's like water when it's cool. but when heated up becomes 40 weight.

i may have to try a beeswax/oil blend.

[btroj]

I think Eutectic made a TnT formula with Mobil 0w-40 and Ivory. Not really that different from what Gear and I did with K2 and Ivory, just used a different oil.

Need to get back to shooting. A few weeks off for turkey season has been nice but I got some lubes to test.

[geargnasher]

Testing slowed for me too, did a little shooting Sunday with the K2 TnT and my .45 Colt revolver and shot the new-to-me Thunderbolt rifle, no surprise the lube worked like a champ at low velocity. No leading, clean guns, and virtually no lube star. Did get the Thunderbolt action all fouled with dry Unique residue because there's almost room for two cartridges in the bulged, goofy oversized chamber, but no greasy lube residue.

Ian

[leftiye]

Is Redline an ester oil? Any future in making TnT with it?