"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[btroj]

Ok, makes sense. You are doing this as a specific test for a specific property.
Sort of like running a lever action fast to see how it handles a hot bore.

I am glad you are willing to shoot at 15 below, I prefer to stay inside on those days.

[rlb]

Kinda like the hunters are looking for the first couple of shots to hit consistently in the same place and more of the target/silhouette guys need more shots to stay consistent for their discipline.

[geargnasher]

That is a good procedure......... BUT, you need to see where each shot goes from cold to where the barrel starts walking. That involves recording each shots position.... You shoot, look thru the spotting scope and record it's position, shoot again and do the same and on. You should note that the rifle basically does the same thing each group and where your shots will go in the sequence and how many before it starts walking.

Agreed. I do record each shot's position through a string of shots fired about 45 seconds apart on average from a cold start. Where it gets interesting is when your group turns into two holes and it's tough to see which hole each shot went after a while.

Something else I have done is establish a baseline for the RIFLE with a lube known to work well at the temperature in question, that way I know if I can attribute the stringing, if any, to load, rifle, the test lube itself, or lube viscosity/lubricity changing the tuning of the load. It's amazing how much difference a lube change can make, switching to Joe's lube from Felix lube in my .30-06 showed a velocity increase of about 120 fps and a POI change of about an inch. Obviously, you have to know the personality of the rifle before any conclusions can be drawn from merely changing lube formulas.

Gear

[btroj]

Yep. I just found the 10 shot baseline group for the 375 using Bens Red. Haven't changed the scope at all and these lubes group higher and left. When I get something that equals the BR group I know I have something.
I try to keep track of the shots in order but in rain and wind it can be tough to see that clearly thru the spotting scope. I don't worry as much about those in the group, I want to identify patterns in those put of the group. Is it every 5 shots? First? Any pattern at all

[357maximum]

Kinda like the hunters are looking for the first couple of shots to hit consistently in the same place and more of the target/silhouette guys need more shots to stay consistent for their discipline.

When you get everything just right, both can be satisfied. It is just not an easy task especially when certain guidelines are factored into the equation. I have several lubes that will cover both angles here where I live....will they work at in Equador???? proably not. I do know that I can toss a 1/2 bar of Ivory into the MML recipe upfront and it still shoots accurately and behaves good here and would help in Equador, but is it enough? I dunno, that is why I sent some to several members here who live where I do not....just to see I spose.


Every gu is a rule onto itself too, that does not help things for "easy". My 35Whelen GEW98 sporter will put all 10 shots into a 1inch group and it does not matter whether the shots took 30 seconds or 10 days to shoot. Not every gun will do that though. That is what makes it so much fun...right?

[geargnasher]

By the time I got the shop cleaned up, the misty rain had indeed burned off, and it was 92 in the shade! My propane grill catches full afternoon sun and I put some lube samples out there this morning to see how the sun affected them. Big difference between a microwave oven and the chandelier of Hades! Just about everything I put out there (five from the SL series, Felix lube, Ben's Red, Simple Lube) either melted into a puddle or started to bleed oils. The only survivors, and they all slumped a bit, were the SL-61 and variants, and the SL-62.

Went down to my range and popped off five of the 60/40 paraffin/AG rounds, made a big round pattern about three times the normal for the SL in this gun, and had a sopping wet, dripping muzzle. Bore was shiny when held to the sun and inspected. Yuck.

So I got mad and started really thinking. What doesn't melt? Soap. What doesn't freeze? Ester two-stroke oil. Hmmm. So I threw half a bar of Ivory in with three tablespoons of K2 ester oil and cooked up some thick, orange soap. Three hours later, no bleed whatsoever on the paper, and it's still firm.

But I didn't wait that long to shoot it. Loaded five with some cull boolits to check for leading, cleaned the Marlin with some Ed's Red to get rid of the mess in the barrel, dried it well, pre-treated with K2 and put a couple of dry patches after it. Put up a target and confirmed my neighbors were gone so I could back up near their house and shoot at 92 yards (found a shady spot I can use cross sticks from sitting). First five are the left upper group on the right target. The second was a flyer, not sure what happened but these boolits were culls, so who knows. Checked the barrel, no leading. Muzzle only had a slight hit of a lube star, and it was clean, no black to it. Pretty good I thought, especially since the third shot cut the first as did four and five.

So I went back, lubed, and loaded ten more. Next groups are right on the right target and the bottom center. First shot from a "cool" barrel dropped an inch, then shot a nice group. So I went straight into the next group and threw the first and third ones, but my shoulder was hurting and I was getting very twitchy and wobbly. This is NOT a pussycat load and that plastic butt plate was giving me a hell of a strawberry.

Just to be sure, I went back and lubed/loaded five more, but this time I let the rifle sit in the direct sun and get damn hot before shooting them. Barrel was way to hot to hold. Those are on the left target, already had three stickers on several I made up so I just used it. Threw the first one left, dang it. Probably me. The last one was from a case I accidentally FL sized earlier in the day, had my dies set up for the Winchester and forgot to adjust, but I wanted to fireform it again to the Marlin. It dropped low into the sticker.

So, disregarding random flyers that I either can blame on ammo or the nut behind the butt, I'm looking at potential 3/8" to 1/2" groups at 92-ish yards from a gun and load combo that only occasionally does better than an inch and a quarter with other lubes. I don't think it's a fluke. Getting rid of all the troublesome waxes and middle modifiers seems to be working.

The specks you see on the targets are actually boolit fragments bouncing back through the paper, I use a sloped steel plate for a backstop and have shot away a lot of the asphalt sheet I use for a target backer, so the paper gets sprayed from behind in places.

Gear

[btroj]

So all this time as NOW you decide to use soap and K2?

Looks very promising Gear.

May need to make some

[Eutectic]

By the time I got the shop cleaned up, the misty rain had indeed burned off, and it was 92 in the shade! My propane grill catches full afternoon sun and I put some lube samples out there this morning to see how the sun affected them. Big difference between a microwave oven and the chandelier of Hades! Just about everything I put out there (five from the SL series, Felix lube, Ben's Red, Simple Lube) either melted into a puddle or started to bleed oils. The only survivors, and they all slumped a bit, were the SL-61 and variants, and the SL-62.

Went down to my range and popped off five of the 60/40 paraffin/AG rounds, made a big round pattern about three times the normal for the SL in this gun, and had a sopping wet, dripping muzzle. Bore was shiny when held to the sun and inspected. Yuck.

So I got mad and started really thinking. What doesn't melt? Soap. What doesn't freeze? Ester two-stroke oil. Hmmm. So I threw half a bar of Ivory in with three tablespoons of K2 ester oil and cooked up some thick, orange soap. Three hours later, no bleed whatsoever on the paper, and it's still firm.

But I didn't wait that long to shoot it. Loaded five with some cull boolits to check for leading, cleaned the Marlin with some Ed's Red to get rid of the mess in the barrel, dried it well, pre-treated with K2 and put a couple of dry patches after it. Put up a target and confirmed my neighbors were gone so I could back up near their house and shoot at 92 yards (found a shady spot I can use cross sticks from sitting). First five are the left upper group on the right target. The second was a flyer, not sure what happened but these boolits were culls, so who knows. Checked the barrel, no leading. Muzzle only had a slight hit of a lube star, and it was clean, no black to it. Pretty good I thought, especially since the third shot cut the first as did four and five.

So I went back, lubed, and loaded ten more. Next groups are right on the right target and the bottom center. First shot from a "cool" barrel dropped an inch, then shot a nice group. So I went straight into the next group and threw the first and third ones, but my shoulder was hurting and I was getting very twitchy and wobbly. This is NOT a pussycat load and that plastic butt plate was giving me a hell of a strawberry.

Just to be sure, I went back and lubed/loaded five more, but this time I let the rifle sit in the direct sun and get damn hot before shooting them. Barrel was way to hot to hold. Those are on the left target, already had three stickers on several I made up so I just used it. Threw the first one left, dang it. Probably me. The last one was from a case I accidentally FL sized earlier in the day, had my dies set up for the Winchester and forgot to adjust, but I wanted to fireform it again to the Marlin. It dropped low into the sticker.

So, disregarding random flyers that I either can blame on ammo or the nut behind the butt, I'm looking at potential 3/8" to 1/2" groups at 92-ish yards from a gun and load combo that only occasionally does better than an inch and a quarter with other lubes. I don't think it's a fluke. Getting rid of all the troublesome waxes and middle modifiers seems to be working.

The specks you see on the targets are actually boolit fragments bouncing back through the paper, I use a sloped steel plate for a backstop and have shot away a lot of the asphalt sheet I use for a target backer, so the paper gets sprayed from behind in places.

Gear

Well..... We've been through "Thick and Thin" on this Extreme Quest that's for sure ...... So why not a lube that's "Thick and Thin"?

Heck Gear..... Why not name it "Thick and Thin" !!!!!!!!!

Got any feel for the weight percentages of this mix?

Eutectic

[btroj]

What size bar of soap? You have been using the 3.1 oz so I assume the same.

Figure roughly 1 tablespoon of oil per 1/2 ounce of soap.

[geargnasher]

It was one of the little bars, Brad. I just guessed on how it would turn out, started to try for two tablespoons but dumped in a third figuring some would burn off. I've made ester grease a dozen times or more, but always ended up putting some wax with it. Interesting how without wax it looks like it might shoot, but with beeswax it's the worst lube I've ever shot.

This certainly makes a person reconsider the effects of the ester and the soap. Several of you were helping work through the ingredients like an algebra problem so I figured I'd throw in and test a different combination. Someone asked a while back on this thread if the sodium greases would work by themselves without wax, well, there's the answer. I'd tried it before with Bullplate and also with synthetic ATF and it was a bore-leading mess, but the ester is so slippery and has such a high film strength that I thought I'd give it a Hail Mary pass.

I'm sure this needs a lot of work yet, most of you won't like this lube because it's sort of a dry, rubbery grease, not a firm waxy stuff like most of us are used to and expect. It might make lube sticks, or it might not, they'd be pretty soft either way and won't take much pressure without deforming. The good news is a person could conceivably just pack it into a lube-sizer by hand. It applies better when chilled, too. Anybody have a lube/sizer base cooler?

Possible additives would be Vybar 103, hexagonal Boron Nitride, or maybe another solid gellant, but if it keeps working like it did today I'll just cope with the handling issues and stick a fork in this project.

Gear

[rlb]

Is it still workable after being in the freezer for a while?

[geargnasher]

Well..... We've been through "Thick and Thin" on this Extreme Quest that's for sure ...... So why not a lube that's "Thick and Thin"?

Heck Gear..... Why not name it "Thick and Thin" !!!!!!!!!

Got any feel for the weight percentages of this mix?

Eutectic

I like that. Just like some of you guys who've stuck with this for over a year.

"TNT" lube has a nice ring to it.

As far as percentages go, I think it's pretty variable. There's loss of oil due to heat, so cooking time can make a big difference. I'm going to say that 4 parts K2 to 7 parts fresh soap is about right, but I don't know how much it really matters. There's a limit to how much soap can be put in without burning since the oil is the "medium" used to apply heat to it. If you use too little oil it dries out, kinda like trying to French-fry potatoes in 1/8" of oil. Too little soap and you have something akin to wheel bearing grease (wet and sticky). I made it as dry as I though would work.

Remember that how much solvent is in the two-stroke matters a lot here, too. I recall you saying the Motul didn't smell of paint thinner or reduce any when cooked, so it would be a good candidate at the 4/7 percentage or thereabouts. The Maxima K2 does reduce some, but not much. Redline reduced in volume by 25% before all the solvents were cooked off. I'm going to say each person will just have to play with it a bit if they want to try making it, the individual cooking utensils, heat source, batch size, cook time, etc. will have a big effect on the outcome. Just try to make it as soapy as you can at first.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Is it still workable after being in the freezer for a while?

Good question, Rich. I'll have to get back to you on that............

Gear

[btroj]

What if a tiny bit of wax is added? Like 10 or 20 percent of the total? Just to help with workablity?
Sort of use wax as a modifier, not a carrier.

[Bigslug]

Several of you were helping work through the ingredients like an algebra problem so I figured I'd throw in and test a different combination.

Maybe you should call it "Alphabet Lube". You set out to "Solve for X" and then realized there were 25 other letters you had to solve for.

[felix]

One batch of Felix lube was rubbery to the hilt. It was one that shot the smallest groups out of the bench gun at 2400. Unfortunately, I could never duplicate it because it contained some crayons from the 60s. So, don't throw out the rubbery batches, Ian, until proven they cannot be shot in various other conditions like guns and weather. ... felix

[geargnasher]

What if a tiny bit of wax is added? Like 10 or 20 percent of the total? Just to help with workablity?
Sort of use wax as a modifier, not a carrier.

I had the same conversation with myself, use wax as a modifier. It might work if the right wax is discovered and use, maybe even paraffin will work. High-temp microwax might be better. Based on experience from the "reduced" Mobil SCH-220 grease, even 10% beeswax made the stuff much more workable. But remember the lessons from Longhorn lube....

One batch of Felix lube was rubbery to the hilt. It was one that shot the smallest groups out of the bench gun at 2400. Unfortunately, I could never duplicate it because it contained some crayons from the 60s. So, don't throw out the rubbery batches, Ian, until proven they cannot be shot in various other conditions like guns and weather. ... felix

All of the brick greases I've made or played with are rubbery once a certain threshold of stearate concentration is crossed, so no worries about duplicating it! Without any wax, "rubbery" might have to be a necessary evil unless we can come up with a way to make it handle better. I have two different commercial lithium brick greases on hand (one a simple stearate and once a Li-complex), also have the reduced Mobil grease that shot pretty well with a touch of wax (leaded slightly without wax), and about three dozen varieties of sodium, lithium, lithium complex, aluminum, micro-talc, bentone, and silica grease that I've made using ATF, Bullplate, gear lube, bar and chain oil, Lucas oil stabilizer (regular and synthetic), AC ester oil, three different kinds of PAG oil, straight PAOs of different viscosities, and probably some I forgot about. The silica is the only thickener that didn't act rubbery at the NLGI #6+ consistency, even the bentone and micro-talc got rubbery at a certain point even though they're not stearates.

Rich, I just checked on a thin wafer of lube that's been sitting on top of a turkey in the freezer for the last half-hour at zero F, it got only slightly more stiff than it was while baking in the sun for hours this afternoon.

I had thought when I made it that if it's too slippery for some reason that some heavy mineral oil could be subbed in for some of the K2 ester oil, and if the stuff doesn't want to jettison from the grooves in sub-freezing temps some mineral or ATF might do the trick. There appears to be a lot of polybutene in this K2, it makes the soap sticky and feathery which might cause it to cling too hard. Paraffin oils have a higher natural viscosity index than aliphatic oils, but not so good as most ester and PAO synthetics do. Some mineral oil could probably be used without making this stuff too hard in the cold, and that would cut the sticky factor down quite a bit.

Gear

[btroj]

I may try some of this stuff Gear. Maybe try adding 5 or 10 percent beeswax.
I wonder what a bit more polybutene would do? Might help bind it together?

Totally different pathway now. Hmmmmm

[geargnasher]

I think it has too much polybutene in it as it is, the stuff gets sticky near zero F. Might have to put a titch of mineral oil in there to temper the sticky. I think beeswax is the wrong way to go, beeswax and ester oil makes something like hot Mozzerella cheese when mixed, very stringy and cohesive, not something that likes to jettison well and tends to make the dreaded "lube boogers" on the targets along with huge groups from the unbalanced boolits.

Try just the grease and if that works for you as well as it did for me today we can fool with making it more "user friendly". My main goal was to see if I could make a wax-free lube that didn't lead, and also if I could make the sodium/ester grease thick enough to apply to the boolits, and was able to do both. Still might need work, though.

Next time out I'll try to chrono these, I'm getting ridges around the firing pin indent on the primer and the primers are quite flat with every hint of machine mark from the bolt face clearly embossed. This load goes just over 2100 fps with Felix lube in cooler weather and doesn't show nearly the pressure signs. I'm betting this one is over 2200, which is getting up there pressure-wise with a 170-grain boolit in a .30-30.

Gear

[btroj]

Will make some tomorrow. 4/7 ratio using Ivory and K2. Will be interested to see how it works.
Need to dig out more brass, already have a need for the 40 I have for some other lubes.
I really need to order 100 more cases for this thing. That coupled with a new mould on the way means some time will be required to just get a new load developed.