"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Jailer]

Mike, I have some copper alloy test rounds loaded up for the 06 and plan on going to Kellogg tomorrow to try them out if you want to tag along. Water situation might be a little better there.

[geargnasher]

Mike, that was above and beyond the call there, but it sure showed exactly what we needed to know at your temperature range. The AG is doing the stringing.

The AG/Ivory/paraffin mix is what I called SL-62. If you take it all the way to the fully-liquid phase it makes a beautiful gel. Brad and I have been adding a touch of K2 ester to it to take care of some of the issues it has of leaving the bore too dry. It does some weird stuff. I have several targets showing similar results to what you got, two or more mini-clusters within a nice group, sometimes still with vertical stringing, though. After a beeswax-based SL fouling, the SL-62 with no ester will shoot a five-shot HOLE. Did it twice with two guns. Next five always strung vertically. Something about that beeswax/soap/AG prefouling made it come together for a few shots, so think about that.

If we can make the SL-62 settle down I believe we'll have the solution, for one thing I'm quite sure it can handle any hot storage requirements we could ever ask, it will make fantastic hollow lube sticks because it shrinks slightly when cooled, isn't super-sticky, is firm until worked, and it firms again after being put in the grooves. It stores well, too.

Soooo, now what? Less AG, but replace it with what? Maybe vaseline, or mineral oil and just use less? How about replacing a little of the paraffin with Micro-160? All of the above?

Gear

[btroj]

The stuff I used yesterday with 1/2 each Vaseline and AG shot larger groups but with no real obvious vertical stringing.
I don't know that 50/50 is required, maybe 25 percent Vaseline? Heck, I think even adding a small amount of mineral oil may do it. Maybe 1/4 tea mineral oil per ounce of AG?

This is gonna take a systematic approach. I may just try 25 percent Vaseline next.

[geargnasher]

Brad, I think Flubber B had too much modifier altogether. Subbing in the Vaseline, at lower viscosity, lowered the total viscosity of the lube. Remember also that with paraffin the soap is integrated into the wax as well as the AG/Vaseline/K2 etc. so there's less of it to control the oils since a bunch is locked into the wax.

After looking over Mike's tests, it seems you were indeed having purge flyers.

Gear

[btroj]

So are we better off using no K2 and the 50 percent Vaseline or using less Vaseline and keep the K2?
Yeah, that is the million dollar question, isn't it?
I will start with 50/50 AG/Vaseline and less K2 along with 25 percent Vaseline and keep the K2 higher.
Might be able to shoot Tues and Fri next week. Got lube to make tomorrow.

I hope I get this figured out before I run out of letters......

[357maximum]

Mike, I have some copper alloy test rounds loaded up for the 06 and plan on going to Kellogg tomorrow to try them out if you want to tag along. Water situation might be a little better there.

Much appreciate the offer Ty, but I have a family commitment tomorrow. THANK YOU ...I am very much wanting to try that longer range steel....someday soon I hope.

[geargnasher]

Less of both, Brad. 35 soap/40 paraffin/10 AG/10 Vaseline/5 K2, or something similar.

Gear

[357maximum]

I have several thoughts as to how to modify the 1/1/1 AG/P/I mix (SL-62). All involve very small % substitutions into/with/instead of the AG (light paraffins and oils) as I do not feel it is off by much at all.....it just feels "CLOSE". My gut tells me that swapping out a small amount of the paraffin with microwax might help, but I would rather find another way. The lube is stiff enough to take a small amount of light oil without doing any harm I think. I think the last sentences in post #2183 and all of post #2184 just about nails it....I think maybehaps anyway. I am going to tiptoe into it as time allows and play with some other/more demanding guns also. That old marlin is a plain easy old girl, that is why she was chosen this morning. This mix is off, but not by much ...I can feel it in my gut.

[357maximum]

Another thing I noticed:


The SL-62 recipe suffers from B.S.D.D (Batch Size Disparity Disorder)

Just like a ton of other recipes the SL-62 recipe "changes" a bit due to batch size.

My initial batch was 1oz of AG/Paraffin/Soap it after full melt it gelled real easy and came out as expected for the components used.
I increased the batch to 6 oz of each and it gelled alot later after full melt/heat removal and came out a very tiny small amount softer. Seen it with alot of recipes......no big deal....just pointing it out. I used to think it was my scales fault when that happened, but I know this to not be the case after many such happenings and even after the purchase of a much better scale.

[btroj]

I tend to make 1 oz each batches as they are easier on the wallet. I already have a few years worth of handgun lube, don't need years worth.

I do wonder how well this will all "batch up". Not al cooking recipes do well that way. The final product will need to be a specific batch size so it comes out consistant for all.

[357maximum]

speaking of years woth of lube:

When the final product is made and all the batches that led up to the "QUEST" are all melted down and made into 1 homogenized batch by each of us.......I predict the HOMOGENIZED lube will shoot pretty good. Everytime I have made a HOMOgenized lube batch after a goal is reached the mutt mixes have shot fair to good. Weird but it does work that way....alloy made from many batches of whatnot/reject boolits seems to do the same thing. It both puzzles me and pizzes me off at the same time. All one can ask at these times is WTH?....does this mean the answer is always somewhere in the middle? or maybe it means we simply try too damn hard?....not sure about any of them answers. It is what it is, solves it for me.

[runfiverun]

I put together 38 sticks of mutt lube and garnished it further looking for a specific viscosity.
once I got that, I used it to lube 8 buckets of various revolver type boolits.
I was scared to try it in my rifles because there is absolutely no way I could ever duplicate it even though I knew what was in it.

[Dutch4122]

speaking of years worth of lube:

When the final product is made and all the batches that led up to the "QUEST" are all melted down and made into 1 homogenized batch by each of us.......I predict the HOMOGENIZED lube will shoot pretty good. Everytime I have made a HOMOgenized lube batch after a goal is reached the mutt mixes have shot fair to good. Weird but it does work that way....alloy made from many batches of whatnot/reject boolits seems to do the same thing. It both puzzles me and pizzes me off at the same time. All one can ask at these times is WTH?....does this mean the answer is always somewhere in the middle? or maybe it means we simply try too damn hard?....not sure about any of them answers. It is what it is, solves it for me.

And that's how I ended up with 6 quarts of "Mike's Purple Homogenous Lube." Thanks buddy!!!!!

Seriously though, nothing has ever shot better in my pistols and pistol caliber carbines; or any load under 2,000 fps for that matter. It worked ok from 2,000 - 2,400 fps, but did no better than my regular rifle lube.

[Eutectic]

In the interests of speeding the process by continuing cold weather testing, does anyone meet all four of these criteria:

1. Have their own backyard shooting range on their property?
2. Have an all-weather rifle and handgun (full stainless/synthetic)?
3. Have a freezer that is large enough to contain said guns and their ammunition?
4. Live in a dry climate that will keep condensation on a cold gun to a minimum?

Bigslug,

I have all four.....

But like many things, theory may not always develop into reality very easily! As Mike (357Maximum) says , the optics are a bear to control, and don't try scope adjustments! I am blessed here with low humidity. I'm not sure if it's a blessing or not in hard winter where you get static shocked every time you touch a ground. This 'theory' works pretty well with iron sights.... but then my old eyeballs don't!

I arrogantly thought many years ago I knew pretty much all about shooting different distances; even very long distances. But I had only shot targets to 500 yards. It was only after we set up a 1000 yard range that I found out I didn't know very much about real long range shooting at all! I've been learning ever since!

Testing in the bitter cold is kind of like this. Have you ever shot with your gun and ammo 100 degrees colder than the ambient? Few have... It is a nightmare for uniformity. If that isn't enough and you can see through your scope you deal with major distortion in sight picture. Let's call it 'heat waves' for short.

Even when testing in ambient conditions of bitter cold you have to have gun and ammo outside for 2 hours minimum to normalize for a real and accurate test. Then you have to keep things uniform as you go. Shoot too fast and heat the gun (barrel) up you have basically blown the test! So testing is S L O W ... You are sitting at your bench freezing and the first urge is to rush through the test so you can get back to the warm wood stove! Nope.... you'll blow your test! A few rounds done correctly so you learn what is really happening is better that rushing a lot of rounds too fast. Below freezing becomes slow and below zero it has taken me a week to shoot a ten shot group! Warm your barrel even a little by going to fast and the lube may 'read' it as 20° instead of -10°! I monitor every shot and know exactly when the lube fails and sometimes succeeds.... At least until double digit minus temps are braved; there I still search for any simulation of some sort of success. Cold testing is a pain for more than your joints!

Eutectic

[btroj]

I Jair made a couple new batches. The ones with Vaseline, even only Replacing 25 percent of the AG, make a gel unlike any of the others. It has almost a snot like phase. Weird.

I made slight changes to the A and B formulas I tried the other day. Want to see if less K2 makes the difference I think it will.

I can't meet any of those 4 criteria. I do what I can, when I can. I won't get a real good feel for how these do at low temps until next fall. Good thing is that by then we should have a good basic formula to test.

[Eutectic]

Last night's snow showers gave way to clearing and 25°

So I went out with the .32-20 and shells early.... still dark!

Almost 3 hours saturation time on gun and shells when I started. The .32-20's best load was used with a 50/50 AG/Beeswax lube substitution. Bore was fouled with the same combination.

First shot at 70 yards was a normal for this gun cold start that was 2" high or so. The second shot was slightly high which signals this ol' Savage thinks the lube may be a little wet.

Temps were 25° at start and 27° at finish. Seven rounds were spaced over about 40 minutes. This allowed barrel to cool back to ambient but not enough time to induce another cold start. Latent heat left in the barrel from firing can heat the next loaded cartridge if left in the chamber too long without firing unless barrel temp is watched close. As this gun is sensitive to vertical change I watched it close to not blame AG for some other problem.

The Savage Model 23 .32-20 shot the 50/50 AG-Beeswax pretty well. It displayed in grouping (and the bore showed) that the lube was too wet for its liking..... Mike's mix with higher BW would probably group better if I was after using AG-Beeswax.

I don't see AG causing vertical dispersion in this gun. I will try the .250-3000 next both soaped AG and with AG-Beeswax.

Target attached.

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Hmm. Not what I was expecting. Now I'll say that all my tests are a start from an ambient-normalized gun and ammo same as you, but once I start shooting I go ahead and finish out a group to see how it does as the barrel warms, so that might explain some differences. I believe Mike did the same as me, so the guns do get warm.

If it quits misting rain this afternoon I'll go test the paraffin/AG mix.

Gear

[btroj]

I don't know of anyone else testing lubes who shoots 7 shots over 40 minutes!
I shoot from a cold barrel and with ambient temp ammo but once I start a group I shoot away. May fire 10 rounds in under 7 minutes.
Is a cool barrel for each shot a practical test for a lube? Does it really tell us what we need to know? I want to know how a lube does under "normal" situations.

Eutectic, you keep bringing up unique situations. Dang you! You keep making me think more and more. My head hurts now.

[45 2.1]

Now I'll say that all my tests are a start from an ambient-normalized gun and ammo same as you, but once I start shooting I go ahead and finish out a group to see how it does as the barrel warms, so that might explain some differences. Gear

That is a good procedure......... BUT, you need to see where each shot goes from cold to where the barrel starts walking. That involves recording each shots position.... You shoot, look thru the spotting scope and record it's position, shoot again and do the same and on. You should note that the rifle basically does the same thing each group and where your shots will go in the sequence and how many before it starts walking.

[Eutectic]

This may be a bit confusing as we are talking apples and oranges in a way....

I don't always take 40 minutes to shoot 7 rounds. But if I'm testing for a lube's performance below freezing AND ESPECIALLY BELOW ZERO I will take this time and maybe more.

Almost without exception, I am cold testing a lube that has already been tested and considered worthy by me for the trouble to even cold test. I'll know point of impacts for a load in warmer testing. (Point of impact matches my other lubes in this case as AG wasn't tested above freezing.) I already know what cool to hot has to offer so why test it again in a cold test?

*The hardest part to pass by far in an 'Extreme' lube formulation will be cold performance.... at least that is my experience. So when I test cold performance EVERY single round is tested for exactly that! Every shot, gun and ammo are the same temp and timing long enough for this uniformity and short enough to keep barrel from going into 'cold start' shock...

Hence this procedure for the AG-Beeswax test. We wanted to know if the cold was causing vertical dispersion because of Assembly Goo. I say no so far... Other guns will confirm one way or another...
If I could just get one of those rare Rocky Mountain days in April when the mercury reaches say minus -14°F below zero I could show you Assembly Goo (along with its pariffinic base) fail miserably though!!

*Maybe the elimination of the cold start itself is after I think about it!!!

Eutectic