Titan ReloadingLee PrecisionWidenersRotoMetals2
Inline FabricationRepackboxLoad DataMidSouth Shooters Supply
Reloading Everything
Page 11 of 153 FirstFirst ... 2345678910111213141516171819202161111 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 3055

Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #201
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    that would also explain why my finished lube got so much better after the second heating and blending.
    did something right without even knowing it [for once]

  2. #202
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    another thing i have noticed with these synthetics is that the b-wax is drastically reduced.
    instead of adding a table spoon full of this or that to a lb of wax.
    you add the wax as an ingredient to firm up the final result.
    i am going 50-50 on the engineer yellow, and will end up around 30% b-wax and 3 ish % on the atf with the j-lube, for them to have the same final viscosity.
    the viscosity is the same as my other lubes made with 60-70% b-wax and soy wax carriers even with modifiers under 5%.
    so the alcohol chains in the b-wax have to be influencing the outcome.
    i am pretty curious if i upped the al stearate to 10% in the lith grease if i could lower the b-wax even further.
    i should have enough of it to make another 5 oz's at that percentage.

  3. #203
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚68’27”N, 99˚12’07”W
    Posts
    14,662
    Ok, here's a fun one to ponder: I decided to make more of the "Zombie" lube, but with the Breox 1000 PAG instead of the AC stuff with the tracer dye. I melted the beeswax gently and added the same percentage as the castor/mineral/lanolin in Felix lube, or about 7/8 tablespoon per 2 Oz. wax. the Breox didn't want to blend, forming little droplets all over. After a few minutes of stirring, the stuff I presume to be the Breox flowed together under the beeswax and started turning brown. I wasn't going over 180F with this, so it wasn't burning. I added 1/2 tsp stearic acid to try to bind it, but no dice. I gave up and poured it into an angled glass to concentrate the oil near the bottom and let it cool completely. When I popped the chunk out, I had an almost white, very purified-looking wax cake with a pure white, crystalline core (the stearic acid, I believe), and this mushy, dark yellow-brown stuff on the bottom that looked and felt exactly like earwax. There was a clean separation line between the wax cake with the white core and the other goop. Something weird happened for sure, I'm guessing the Breox precipitated some of the "stuff" from the beeswax, and the stearic acid wouldn't dissolve in what was left of either so it clumped to itself in the center of what was left of the wax while it cooled. What really fascinated me was that the beeswax cake isn't really beeswax anymore. It smells like honey still, but is more like a plastic. It's hard, shiny, pliable, will bend quite a bit without cracking, but isn't very stretchy. Whatever it is, it isn't what I was trying to make. When I used the AC PAG oil I had zero separation issues, even sliced a muffin in two with a razor blade to look, and it's very much homogenized.

    I also made some Lithi-bee with the Mobil 1 grease, 50/50 by weight, finally got it to blend into a lump-free, creamy gravy and poured it on a plate to cool. I put some in the freezer and it got hard as a freakin-rock, like shattered when I hit it with a hammer kind of hard. At room temp it's ok, but still a bit firmer than I like, looks like you're right about the synthetics needing much less wax than conventional greases and oils. I should have listened to you when you said 10% or whatever it was, you've been playing with the wax and synthetics more than me!

    So while waiting for the beeswax/Breox to cool, I went back over all the stuff I've made and tried, and started analyzing the failures. The Ivory soap/Permatex Hi-temp brake caliper slide grease stuff made wonderful, greasy, firm, stretchy, temp-stable lube with no real melting point, no first-shot flyer, but leaded. The synthetic ATF/Ivory stuff made a nice pliable, waxy, slick lube that would crack slightly when kneaded (compared to the slide grease version), and it leaded worse, but again, no first shot flyer. The clay lube, with and without graphite, leaded even worse than that, but the first two shots were touching and in the group subtracting the subsequent flyers every 3-4 shots. The beeswax/BG PAG oil had a first-shot flyer, but a really tight group with no surprises, the slight bore leading not withstanding. I'm not drawing any conclusions about the bore leading because the barrel has been through a lot lately and hasn't been completely stripped clean at any point. What do I think at this point? I have one big question now for everyone to ponder: What if the lube has to melt to work? Think about an ice skate for a minute. The blade of the skated doesn't glide over the ice, it glides on water. Pressure against the ice from the weight of the skater instantly melts a microscopic layer of ice as it touches it, allowing the skate to float on a slippery layer of water, which acts as a film lubricant between the frozen skate and the frozen water. Following that concept, and observing that lubes with non-melting bases lead, I'm starting to consider that if the base doesn't let the lube in contact with the bore thin out a great deal in proportion to the speed of the boolit, then the boolit over-runs the lube and just rips through the bore leaving lead debris and lube residue in it's wake, hence the awful fouling I've been experiencing.

    I have labored to achieve a temp-stable carrier, and have come up with a couple that are superbly consistent from uncomfortably-hot-to-hold to my deep freeze temp of 5 below, but they don't work in the barrel. Mission accomplished, experiment a success, conclusion is that that was the WRONG approach. I'm thinking the whole reason for the cold-barrel and cold-weather flyers for the first few shots is entirely due to the extra calories it takes to get that lube film just right for the dynamic and brief near-instant that the boolit zips across it. IOW, the only thing that really matters to the boolit is how the lube is reacting to the bore at any given instant from launch to muzzle, and I think there's a very large friction difference between an inch into the barrel and the muzzle end due to the speed and pressure of the boolit acting on the lube film. The non-melting lubes just can't handle the speed it seems because the carriers are preventing the liquid sliding surface from happening. The deeper I go into this, the stupid-er I'm getting.

    Gear

  4. #204
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3,623
    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post

    ...the micro waxes are intriguing, but picking the right one, or being able to modify it would be essential. If you could find one that had the viscosity between b-wax and soy wax scented candles, it would be about right.
    Has anyone talked to the folks at Blended Waxes about making a lube (unfortunately, it looks like the minimum order is a ton)?

    Nevertheless, BW-431 is listed as a "Lubricant for PVC Extrusion" and is available as a retail item through BW's webstore. Scroll down to the Building & Construction section:

    http://www.blendedwaxes.com/index.ph...tries-we-serve

    MJ
    Last edited by Marlin Junky; 04-15-2012 at 05:34 AM.

  5. #205
    Boolit Grand Master
    btroj's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Nebraska's oldest city
    Posts
    12,418
    I think the ice skate reference is aout dead on. The lube that fills the entire groove doesn't need to melt but a thin film in contact with the bore needs to be fluid enough to provide a slick layer for the bullet to pass smoothly thru the bore.

    I don't know if the cold weather flyers are because the lube dries out like Run has mentioned or if it is because the lube in the barrel is cold enough to provide a bit of resistance, almost like a bitof leading. Warm the barrel just a bit and the lubrisizer thin enough to flow. Any of us who use a heater for our lubrisizer understand that even a. 5 degree difference can make a huge impact on the flow properties of some of our lubes.

    I don't think it is getting stupid-er Gear, you are just learning what doesn't work. Along the way you may be gaining more insight into how lubes work and what properties they need in order to be effective. If you got it right on the first try it wouldn't be as fun, would it? I always tell my daughter that anything in life worth accomplishing is difficult because the easy to do stuff is easy, anyone can do it.

  6. #206
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Island of Misfit Toys
    Posts
    5,951
    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    I have one big question now for everyone to ponder: What if the lube has to melt to work? Think about an ice skate for a minute. The blade of the skated doesn't glide over the ice, it glides on water. Pressure against the ice from the weight of the skater instantly melts a microscopic layer of ice as it touches it, allowing the skate to float on a slippery layer of water, which acts as a film lubricant between the frozen skate and the frozen water. Following that concept, and observing that lubes with non-melting bases lead, I'm starting to consider that if the base doesn't let the lube in contact with the bore thin out a great deal in proportion to the speed of the boolit, then the boolit over-runs the lube and just rips through the bore leaving lead debris and lube residue in it's wake, hence the awful fouling I've been experiencing.

    .........

    ..........

    ............................................

    The deeper I go into this, the stupid-er I'm getting.

    Gear


    I would say you are learning something not getting stuuuupider errr.

    Now you know and understand the mechanics behind the "why" when I added soft microcrystalline wax to the standard lithi-bee recipe to make MML. Unfortunately when the "cold start flyer" was erased using the microwax it also caused the lube to become instant goose poop when pressurized and warmed in certain lubesizers and under certain temperature situations (HOT). This trait did fill my goal of a good HUNTING LUBE for cool weather and it does fill the bill for 99% of my shooting here in MICHIGAN....If I lived somewhere south of here where it is warmer another approach/recipe would have been neded.


    The "lube" takes a second seat waaaay back after the carrier as the carrier is the most important part in my opinion.

    I wish you luck, but I do not feel your goal can be realized....sometimes in life you simply need to compromise....boolit lube is proably one of them times. I ended up compromising the the carriers ...beeswax/microwax in MML, but the "lube"..A.K.A lithium grease never changed. The man that originally melted beeswax and lithium grease together was either very informed or very lucky as I believe he hit the pinnacle of lube pretty close to dead on. The rest of us have simply been copying and modifying ever since......but it works.

    If I were still to continue chasing my tail on the lube front and lived south of here somewhere......I would look into a higher melt point microwax and lithium grease and nix the beeswax altogether. You WILL be happy when you find the right microwax for your location.


    ***the proceeding has been one man's opinion and is likely worth exactly what you paid for it. *****

  7. #207
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    9,679
    A lithium grease is approximately lithium stearate at 7 percent within a vaseline type base. Then, that is mixed 50-50 with beeswax provides the lithium lube talked about. Using an appropriate microwax instead of beeswax can be adjusted per 357maximum for the application. There is an article in Handloader back in the late 80's - early 90's that discusses using the beeswax carrier. ... felix
    felix

  8. #208
    Boolit Grand Master
    btroj's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Nebraska's oldest city
    Posts
    12,418
    You aren't kidding aout MML turning to goose poop with just a tiny bit too much heat. I haven't shot it enough in the heat of summer to see how it behaves for me but I like it in the cold.

  9. #209
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Island of Misfit Toys
    Posts
    5,951
    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    You aren't kidding aout MML turning to goose poop with just a tiny bit too much heat. I haven't shot it enough in the heat of summer to see how it behaves for me but I like it in the cold.
    You should have seen the version that was made using micro/paraffin/lithium grease......... or the version with just micro/lithium grease....both had ZERO plastic range....lube went from a solid and turned into milk.......right now. The affectionate name for that lube was boolit semen.

    That is the reason all 3 waxes ended up in their final proportions. Myself and Babore were trying to "balance" the carrier and it took multiple tries. In the end it worked real well for our uses.

    I have been across Nebraska several times and if it bothers in "THE HEAT" add some beeswax in place of some of the parraffin and you should be good to go. You are not that much warmer than Michigan but our summer air is a bit thicker thanks to the wind dumping moisture from the Great Lakes onto us. I am not even going to think about what humidity does to a lube. I will leave that to them edumacated folks.

  10. #210
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚68’27”N, 99˚12’07”W
    Posts
    14,662
    You might be right, Michael. I thought I could get away from the performance limits of conventional lube by making it have the most constant temperature/velocity possible, and I made four very nice concoctions that to me just "felt right", but for some reason none of them shoot without leading in an otherwise known-good combination. I'm going to keep plugging at it until I figure out why that's happening. It's important to know for sure whether a non-melting base is the problem, or if it's just clay-based lube that can't handle it when thickened too much.

    Things I haven't tried are super-thickened aluminum stearate grease, bentone and PAO oils, and Ivory soap/PAG oils, although like you said, the "lube" part probably factors in a lot less than we think. Maybe even a conventional oil with a lower VI and a non-melting base would work, something to "thin out" the sliding layer near the muzzle but a temp-stable carrier to dispense it.

    What ever is going on, I'll bet the crux of it involves the dynamic change in lube film from throat to muzzle as the boolit goes from zero to 2K fps in less than two feet. Studying the "speed rating" of the base oil in many greases is an eye-opener, according to some standardized formulas we're routinely exceeding the rated mechanical speed of any auto or industrial grease we use by dozens of times. When the entire system is operating in a 100+ degree temp window, the lube condition at the muzzle is drastically different at either temp extreme, and that seems to be causing our problems.

    Temp-stable base lubes like what Speed Green uses seem to be a little less finicky in the temp extremes, and I think that's because the base, which is doing the real work, does the appropriate amount of surface-liquifying under friction and pressure whether the "system" starts out at 150 degrees below its melt point or 40 degrees.

    Gear

  11. #211
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Island of Misfit Toys
    Posts
    5,951
    Felix

    I have been using Motor Mica to coat normal grease grooved boolits lubed with MML after seeing it improve accuracy of lee snot coated "plinker" boolits. It seems to make the bore condition even more consistant and the loads are definately more accurate even at 2400+ velocities.

    Is there a way Gear could incorporate such a thing into his obsession without fancy equipment?

    I have thought about adding some directly into MML as it cooled to keep it suspended, but I melt and pour to fill the sizer and mentally nixed the idea. I simply put a small amount of Motor Mica into a baggie to coat the already lubed/sized boolits and it works so I did not fuss with it.

    Any application to this "quest"??????????

  12. #212
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    back to the ice skate thing.
    ski's work the same way, but they are waxed.
    here's where the lube analogy comes in.
    they use a thickened miicro-wax [parrafin maybe] to do this, but the waxes come in three different colors airc green,yellow, and red
    for different conditions on the snow [temp]
    i feel pretty good about only having two lubes [okay, one with a modifier] and now the engineer yellow to work with.
    but i have only tried it in about a 35-40 degree window.

    like i mentioned n the other post i am pretty dang sure lube does have a fluid stage.
    brought on by friction and powder heat.
    it's melt point influences when this happens and for how long in the bbl.
    and is why some lubes are better in the cold and some in the heat.
    we are looking at big windows -40 to 350/500 with some of this stuff.
    and i believe the trick is to narrow that window, b-wax works because of it's 180f melt temp, but it also has a go soft stage somewhere in the 120f area.
    the white lith i am using has the flow stage at room temp, it doesn't change at 100 and is only slightly thicker at the cold end and is why i add the atf for the cold.
    the atf version works at the hot end too, but i have that first shot thing at both ends.
    it wouldn't really matter for deer hunting out to 150 yds or so, as it's not a wild shot, it's just not in the group.
    if i can put a lube between my thumb and side of my finger [with firm pressure] and glide it along and get a bit of softening and a residual glide,without any grittyness it is usually a good shooter.

    the separation and cleaning of the wax is perplexing and i'm glad you posted it because i was gonna give that a try.
    i may try some pao and the soft candle wax [soy] and see if it takes the oil.
    to get a grease to go into the b-wax don't melt the b-wax
    just get it to the soft mushy stage [like peanut butter] and then blend the two together,you may have to re-heat and blend as you go walking that mush stage.

  13. #213
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚68’27”N, 99˚12’07”W
    Posts
    14,662
    Looks like we're on the same page, R5R. I like your concept of adding three things together to cover the bases, like a multi-viscocity engine oil. Thin base oil for low temps, a soap-matrix grease for midrange, and let the wax handle the high end and "bear" the whole enchilada down the barrel. Depending on how the oil/thickened oil/wax all interact with each other, you might be on the right track. The problem I see arising is that when you dissolve grease into wax, they both change in structure. When you dissolve oil into grease, it changes too. It's almost like we need a base oil that won't blend with the oil in the grease, and a grease and base oil that won't blend too well with the carrier wax, so each can do it's own thing.

    Bruce and I discussed how castor bean oil has a really lousy VI, although it has some amazing properties as a natural lube. Where it falls on its face is in the cold. The beeswax doesn't seem to be the limiting factor here, it's the base oil. Keeping with a two-part lube, I'm going to keep pursuing the PAG/beeswax lube for now and see where that leads me, then maybe pursue the Mobil 1/beeswax lube with some ATF added, basically Junior's formula but with synthetic grease and ATF.

    Gear

  14. #214
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    motor mica sublimates when subjected to heat, it will firm up some wax mixtures too.
    trewax and jpw 50-50 and reduced with motor mica melted in shows a definate thickening.
    and very little of it is needed.
    1/8th teaspoon and 4 oz's reduced jpw showed some good thickening ability.
    that and 2 tbs grated ivory is my o.d. green lube.

    a tumble lube or dry coating is a direction i am looking at to alleviate fighting the viscosity issue. ;heck, that paint stuff is beginning to look attractive.
    i have even thought about just soaking the naked boolits [or dropping from the mold] in a zddp additive.

  15. #215
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚68’27”N, 99˚12’07”W
    Posts
    14,662
    The ZDDP impregnation would solve your lube problems, but what would it do for obturation? Paper-patching looks better every day, doesn't it?

    When threads come up about how somebody spent days out of their life to copper-plate a single boolit when paper-patching and heat-cure powdered paints have already been proven (not to mention swaging jacketed "boolits"), I just shake my head. That's ok, lots of folks are probably shaking their heads at us!

    Gear

  16. #216
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    with this synthetic stuff i have started thinking of the b-wax as a modifyer/binder and not as the carrier.

  17. #217
    Banned

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    28,088
    i figured the boolit diameter would take care of that.
    you would have to have a good bbl though.
    if it didn't gall in the bbl i think it would do the job
    something along the lines of lla or recluse lube just 1,000 times thinner.

  18. #218
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
    felix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    fort smith ar
    Posts
    9,679
    There is some lazy guy in a polymer ivory tower somewhere looking for something interesting and different. You can bet on it. He might be burried somewhere in a Monsanto, GE, DuPont, Hercules, Mobile, BP, Bristol, Bayer, etc. You know, the folks with full blown shareable databases containing thousands of chemical expansions with attributes. What we are looking for is a coating consisting of cellulose properties, type applicable by luber machine, tumble lubing, or pan lubing. ... felix
    felix

  19. #219
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚68’27”N, 99˚12’07”W
    Posts
    14,662
    What about guar gum?

    The funny thing about paper-jacketed boolits is that they need some lube to work best at really high speed and twist rate, but it doesn't seem to matter much what that lube is. Tumble-lubing the dried boolits in Recluse lube does as well as a soft mix of beeswax and Vaseline, straight JPW, FWFL, etc...... It must work because the paper is the "carrier" and any sort of slickum at all does the trick. No fliers, no fouling to speak of, a cold clean barrel is as good as a hot, seasoned one.

    Don't get me thinking about the cellulose fiber/wax/oil lube thing again

    Gear

  20. #220
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Island of Misfit Toys
    Posts
    5,951
    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    What about guar gum?


    Don't get me thinking about the cellulose fiber/wax/oil lube thing again

    Gear
    C'mon...you know you wanna.

Page 11 of 153 FirstFirst ... 2345678910111213141516171819202161111 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check