"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Eutectic]

That low first shot flyer with some versions of the SL series is just flat strange, isn't it? I'm with you, almost always IF I have a first shot flyer, and IF I'm sure it's due to lube, it's almost always an inch or more high and often slightly wide of the group to the left or right at about 11 or one o-clock.


It might do to add back so more slick stuff, like regular heavy napthenic oils (bar oil, Lucas, STP, etc.) and see how that does with the first shot flyer. If we can put something in there that usually throws the first shot high it might cancel the AG's tendency to throw them low. maybe.
Gear

Like Mike and Gear, cold first shot low fliers are really a rare experience and a month ago I'd have even said nonexistent!

Yet one point I didn't make before was the 30-30-40 (Stihl bar oil, Ivory, Beeswax percents) also exhibited low first shot fliers!

Some food for thought.

My AG Hi-soap mix actually cold started quite well for point of impact. Only the larger vertical dispersion groups were frustrating.

50/50 AG and Beeswax is a little thin and I'm not crazy about its 'feel' but I'm leaving it 'rich' on AG as is to see what we can learn. First of the week should have a couple mornings under freezing.... so we'll see.

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

i'm still thinking we might be able to Band-Aid some of these issues with a metallic filler.

[btroj]

Went to the range today. About 40 degrees and windy. Wind was left to right quartering at 15 to 20 mph.

Shot 2 10 shot groups each with Flubber A and Flubber B

A is
1 oz paraffin
1 oz AG
1/2 oz Ivory
1 and 1/2 tes K2

B is
1 oz paraffin
1 oz Ivory
1/2 oz AG
1/2 oz Vaseline
1 and 1/2 tes K2

First off I was amazed at one key fact today. EVERY target had the first shot right in the middle of the group. NO first shot flyers, even when barrel was cold and fouled- never cleaned or patched barrel since last time out. This was something I did not expect but I was very pleased by it.


First target with the A. Shot 3 went high, shot 10 was low and left. Others went into a group that I don't consider bad for the conditions.


Target 2 with the A. Shot 3 was low and right. Shots 7,8,9 were low and left, shot 10 was back into the group. Classic example of purge flyers? The fact the rest of the shots went into a nice group tells me this is a recipe that deserves further investigation. Maybe reduce the K2 to 1/2 tea to reduce the slick?

This is the first time ANY of these lubes has given even close to as good a target the second 10 as it did the first 10. Both recipes were at least equal in quality for the second 10 rounds. Maybe we need a lube with an overall softer base and less oil?

Flubber B showed generally larger groups. The first 10 were a group in the 2.5 inch range with no flyers. The second target showed distinct flyers after 5 or 6 shots.

I think I will make more of the A but use far less K2, it may be causing the flyers late in strings.

The A had reduced soap content. The lower soap content may be part of the reason it purged so badly with that much K2, the soap helps prevent that?

Now to make more lube and cast more bullets.

Brad

[357maximum]

Maybe we need a lube with an overall softer base and less oil?


Now to make more lube and cast more bullets.

Brad

I would say both them sentences are right on the money.

Maybe there is a softer/less brittle/hard soap to be had so that the percentages could remain up there?....not a soap engineer/maker though...is that possible while still maintaining the good things soap has to offer, and without inducing new evils to the mix? Is softer soap merely softened with water/oils? Does it contain less "soap" in the softer soap?????? I played with some clear glycerin soap base quite a few years back while seeking a wet shooting muzzleloader lube, but that soap was hydroscopic by design.....not something I want in my smokeless guns that seldom get their bores swiped.


Soft Microwax will allow a softer base, but microwax holds it oils prouder/differently than paraffin/beeswax mixes....you have induced more questions without immediate answers into my head....thank you

[btroj]

Biggest advantage of Ivory is the fact it is largely sodium stearate. Using it means we aren't introducing lots of other "stuff" we don't need, or possibly want.

I think using less Ivory will do the job, it just means we need to reduce the oils. Without the soap to help contain the oils they seem to run amok.

Now to see if a small amount of beeswax makes any difference. Maybe just 10 to 25 percent?

Microwax is something I haven't yet investigated. Too hard to find small amounts, not sure I am ready to buy 10 pounds yet on a whim.

[geargnasher]

I have a variety of metal stearates on hand thanks to Bruce381, they are all hard powders when milled and absent any oils. So if a "soap" for cleaning isn't hard, it has lots of water/glycerine/fatty oils etc. in it to make it so. All the metal stearates do is gel the oils just like fruit pectin or gelatin gels water. think greases like you'd think of Jell-O or grape jelly, just a mix of liquid and gelling agent.

Vaseline and AG are just super-heavy oils, actually more like soft waxes. Those are thick due to the long-chain molecular nature, not due to gelling agents like wheel bearing grease or Ivory soap and any kind of oil.

One thing I don't like about Microwax as a base (but might do well as an additive) is that it goes liquid at a sharp point ("abrupt phase change" if you want the techno-lingo Brad came up with ) and the resulting liquid is quite non-viscous, almost like water and has very little film strength at all. This makes for screwiness akin to the groups Brad was getting when it's used in a warm-weather lube as the sole wax. A paraffin/micro blend or other wax blend might do the trick nicely, though.

Gear

[runfiverun]

those hard commercial lubes are micro-wax.

I am waaay sold on low/no oil content.
I really think the 'oils' visc is very important here.
the only way we can combat temperature is to not use viscous oils.
we have already learned this lesson....

[btroj]

Is 1/2 tea of K2 in a 3 ounce batch low enough?

I agree that the oils need to be kept in check. I like what this lube did as it showed no first round flyers. The lube purging is a known problem with a known solution. The big groups and first round flyers are tougher to deal with.

I think lower soap is gonna be the answer. Today showed me that the AG isn't the problem. It was only 40 degrees and NO first shot flyers.

[geargnasher]

The SL-62 had nothing but the AG in if for oils, and would always string the second set of five vertically. It also was borderline wanting to lead. I don't think it would take really high velocity without some two-stroke oil similar thick oil.

Not to throw another crazy idea into the middle of this before more thorough testing is done with what we already have, but how about Trans Jel? It has a heavy, NAPTHENIC oil comprising 50-70% and a 145 F. melt point. I'm going to get some and try it both plain and with Ivory soap with paraffin wax as the base and see what gives. It might end up being a good middle modifier without the flyers in the second group, and I've been wanting to answer the looming question of napthenic vs. paraffinic oils for a while. I've messed with it before as an assembly lube and it's more "slick" feeling even in really cold weather. We used to nuke it for 30 seconds before trying to lube lip seals when building automatic transmissions on a cold morning.

Gear

[btroj]

Great. More stuff for me to bug the parts store for. They ask questions and I just tell them it isn't for trannys. They don't want to know.

[geargnasher]

Is 1/2 tea of K2 in a 3 ounce batch low enough?

I agree that the oils need to be kept in check. I like what this lube did as it showed no first round flyers. The lube purging is a known problem with a known solution. The big groups and first round flyers are tougher to deal with.

I think lower soap is gonna be the answer. Today showed me that the AG isn't the problem. It was only 40 degrees and NO first shot flyers.

I'm not sure what you had was lube purging. Usually a purge is one shot and done for two-to-four more, then another purge. The Longhorn lube with beeswax, Ivory, and Redline Ester two-stroke did that, took me a while to discover it because it was always one to three flyers in the second group of ten fired with the barrel still warm. I repeated it several times before giving up on the formula. Actually, it was a monumental failure in my pistols, the worst lube hands-down I've ever shot in them, turning 1-2" 25-yard groups into paper-plate groups. I think that was due to the wax, though, beeswax, soap, and too much ester oil makes tough, stringy lube boogers. Longhorn lube also left wet lube stars and a thick, greasy film on everything including shooting glasses.

I'm going to stick with high-soap for a while yet just because I'm ornery and have a high-soap lube that DOES work just super, but with the components we've been using, you guys have definitely shown that too much soap isn't working. I just wish I knew exactly why.

Did someone mention a metallic lubricant possibly fixing the issues with high soap content? Still have the hBN up my sleeve.....

Gear

[geargnasher]

Great. More stuff for me to bug the parts store for. They ask questions and I just tell them it isn't for trannys. They don't want to know.

Oh no! You're on a roll, man. I think cutting the soap and and playing with the bw/paraffin blends deserves a go. I did the blend, but didn't cut the soap and still used too much castor oil, so my results didn't prove much.

I'll fool with the heavy napthenics for now, save you guys the trouble. I also have two different kinds of lithium brick grease to play with too, they both have blends of heavy napthenic oils and 20-25% lithium thickener.

Gear

[geargnasher]

You could be right about the wax Brad...... Gear says the 'Beeswax' Joe used in his lube isn't really Beeswax as we know it... And Joe's lube shot great for me in the same .32-20 mentioned with the identical load at -4°F !

I am getting more and more prodded to get my hands on some
C 24-C 28 alpha olefin to experiment with..... A synthetic wax...

Eutectic

Just to let you know, the couple of times you mentioned this stuff hasn't gone un-noticed, I'm very interested in this stuff. For one thing, it will be predictable and repeatable, what ever it does. Many of the products we are trying to use are more or less waste product, I don't imagine that even Gulf wax is consistent, it just has to meet FDA standards and be a wax.

Gear

[btroj]

Cetyl esters are still in the back of my mind too. I gotta get some just to shut that little voice up.

[Eutectic]

Like Mike, I like to 'foul' a barrel when I change lube. Usually it is a 'plinking' episode.... Due to a boolit shortage at the moment I tried something different.

My first cup of coffee yesterday morning while still dark out saw a surprising 27° on the thermometer. I quickly lubed some .32-20 boolits with 50/50 AG-Beeswax to catch the below freezing temp.

I soft treated the dirty bore.... This is basically a Dexron III patch through then a dry one. This .32-20 will show 1" vertical impact change for about 100fps velocity change so I played with that trait to double check uniformity during my short window of not being prepared.

I loaded five foulers. Two were 104gr GC HP's at 1850fps. One load was the same boolit at maybe 1770fps, then the last two rounds were my most accurate combo of 116gr solids at 1700fps.

It was 31° at 8:30. The first shot was 3/4" above point of aim at 70 yards from the soft treated bore. The second (same load) round was right next to it! The soft treated bore didn't cold start high. The third round (1770fps) was 7/8" lower. The last two with my most accurate boolit were 1" lower yet and almost touching each other. There wasn't even 1/2" horizontal dispersion in the 'stacked' five rounds!

Summary? This first fouling/testing is showing the AG Beeswax very predictable to this gun's normal performance. It even seems like it will shoot this lube. (at least below freezing) The melt point is low for sure; a hot breath may soften it up! I'll test ten more of the 116gr good load Tuesday morning when temps are predicted for the low 20's. I plan to test the Ruger .250-3000 (fouled with AG Hi-soap now) first with soap then without soap as well. I will monitor where impacts go as I change over to the AG-Beeswax with no bore treatment.

It can't decide if it wants to rain or snow outside.... I've decided to cast boolits this morning.

I'll work on getting a sample of the Alpha Olefin wax.

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Wow, I'd love to see that again with some of the same load/boolit now that you've got the barrel re-fouled! Tough to say without data from a couple of five or ten-shot strings, but it looks like the soap may be causing our vertical dispersion.

I'm going to shoot an AG/paraffin mix tomorrow if the weather's good and report on that since you guys are doing the beeswax/AG.

Gear

[btroj]

Been looking at trying some Maxima Castor 927 oil. It contains over 50 percent refines castor oil. It has some modified esters also. What worris me is the MSDS reported 450 degree boiling point. Will the stuff last around long enough to make a grease?
I looked at the K2 MSDS and boiling point wasn't determined.

Anyone have any ideas?

[Eutectic]

Wow, I'd love to see that again with some of the same load/boolit now that you've got the barrel re-fouled!
Gear

That's my plan Ian..... I'll leave it dirty and shoot only AG/ Beeswax again the first of the week. I hope to get two cold starts, followed with a group each time... I won't adjust powder charge down for cold starts either. Let's see what they do with all loads the same.

Eutectic

[Bigslug]

In the interests of speeding the process by continuing cold weather testing, does anyone meet all four of these criteria:

1. Have their own backyard shooting range on their property?
2. Have an all-weather rifle and handgun (full stainless/synthetic)?
3. Have a freezer that is large enough to contain said guns and their ammunition?
4. Live in a dry climate that will keep condensation on a cold gun to a minimum?

[357maximum]

Bigslug


I can cover 1 through 3 but number four is the buggar.....If I had a quick detach scope system it could work but I have always been too cheap to purchase said unit.


IAN


It was breezy out this morning but the wind was in my face. I shot 5plinker foulers + 15 round groups of all three versions of the binary BW/AG mixes. All shooting was done with a Scoped Pre micro 336SC-35REM @ 80 yards (avoiding a wade session through one of my temporary lakes @100). I was gonna shoot 2X10 rounds 10 at steel and 10 at paper, but inspiration struck to shoot 15 at paper.

Load was 35-200 RCBS over 37.0 grains H335. With MML this gun will average right at 1.2 X1.2 inches @ 100 with this load. Only fouling work was 5 rounds put into a steel plate before the other 15 were shot. I was hoping to watch the bore "come in" ...never really saw a pattern of that until the last group with 75BW/25AG.

The 50/50 mix was vertical strung pretty bad, the group started dead on target 1st shot, then it just randomly strung both high, then low with no pattern to when it was gonna go high/low.......final group was 1.2 inch wide X 3.1inches tall. Typical too wet lube pattern.

The 60/40 batch looked better first 2 shots were just barely high, but then slung them randomly high/low... final 15 rd group 1.5 X 2.5


75BW/25AG- first 3 shot landed into 3/4 inch then they took turns going slightly high/low, final 15rd group = 1.25 wide by 2.2 high. Not what I would judge as a bad group with a head wind. This lube needs "something" to make it handle better though......better panlube than a sizer lube likely??. I panlubed the boolits and was happy, one session does not tell you everything, but, I could likely live with this lube if nothing else was available for...... 40 degree shooting anyway.


After that and with no bore prep at all......I also shot 20 rounds of the 3 equal parts AG/soap/Paraffin batch........need to make more test rounds up....I saw something there I like . Not sure where the first shot went...I think really really really high...not sure though??? but the final group was 2 inches in diameter (round) showed several 4-5 shot clusters of 3/4 inch...I could watch this lube settle down and "COME INTO ITSELF"......... but I was getting windburn eye watering fatigue and the wind was picking up rapidly....and I ran out of ammo. Best high soap group I have ever shot. Still digesting what happened there I guess.


So........I made a slightly larger batch of the 3 equal parts AG/Paraffin/Soap. This stuff just looks like lube to me, and with no beeswax or microwax it would be darn cheap to make, so loaded 10 foulers and I did some shooting out of the loading room window (65 yards at steel).... just to pre-foul the bores on several guns. The groups on the steel plates look promising and I was just shooting off a window sill. The peeped 8mm , Scoped 35REM 91 mauser, and the whelen are ready for when Ma Nature gets to feeling a bit better. Have some loading to do tonight.