"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Marlin Junky]

Mike,

I'm guessing the melt temp is in the 140-145F range. Is that what you mean by, "...there is NOT ENOUGH soap in it for this QUEST"?

Perhaps the key to making it Extreme is performing two substitutions:

1) Lithium 12-hydroxystearate for dopey 'ol Ivory.

2) BW-422 or 436 for canning paraffin.

Whadda ya think?

MJ

[Eutectic]

Eutectic, try making some with paraffin instead of beeswax. Seems that change helps eliminate the loob boogers on targets.
I need to test some in my Marlin 45-70, it has shown boogers where no other rifle has.

Not sure how it will do in cold, we don't have that anymore.

You could be right about the wax Brad...... Gear says the 'Beeswax' Joe used in his lube isn't really Beeswax as we know it... And Joe's lube shot great for me in the same .32-20 mentioned with the identical load at -4°F !

I am getting more and more prodded to get my hands on some
C 24-C 28 alpha olefin to experiment with..... A synthetic wax...

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Eutectic and Mike, would you do me a huge favor? Melt a tablespoon of beeswax with enough Assemblee Goo to make it an appropriate consistency for lube (I'd wager 50/50 is about right), finger lube about 20 boolits, and shoot them at at least two different times on some cool mornings? Even ten would be a good indicator. If the soap is the culprit for the poor accuracy you are both getting in the cold we need to know positively before the rest of us waste a lot of time and components playing with it in the heat. I've already done this with paraffin and AG and can't tell any difference in accuracy from the soap version, but it's been up in the 80s here.

There's a possibility that the Assemblee Goo itself is the culprit because it sure gets stiff in the cold.

Gear

[btroj]

Sounds like a good idea Gear.

[Eutectic]

Gear,

I'll make some up today....... Rain/snow coming a few days with lows just above freezing; but Mon and Tues next week forecast morning temps low to mid-20's .... I'll try it in a couple mules (rifles) that have a track record accuracy-wise and report back.

Eutectic

[357maximum]

Eutectic and Mike, would you do me a huge favor? Melt a tablespoon of beeswax with enough Assemblee Goo to make it an appropriate consistency for lube (I'd wager 50/50 is about right), finger lube about 20 boolits, and shoot them at at least two different times on some cool mornings? Even ten would be a good indicator. If the soap is the culprit for the poor accuracy you are both getting in the cold we need to know positively before the rest of us waste a lot of time and components playing with it in the heat. I've already done this with paraffin and AG and can't tell any difference in accuracy from the soap version, but it's been up in the 80s here.

There's a possibility that the Assemblee Goo itself is the culprit because it sure gets stiff in the cold.

Gear

Ian,

I actually have 60BW/40AG and 50/50 in the test crate, just have not had time to test them between work and monsoons. Most my other test batches have wax blends or MW in them, but I am trying to get off that MW crutch (expensive) a bit. Forty degree weather is about as low as I will be able to test them ...unless I simulate the cold with the chest freezer that is 30 feet from my shooting bench. That kinda testing I really needed a good quick detach scope mount system for when our humidity was high, but if the time and the weather permit....It shall be done sooner than later at least at morning ambient temp. When I tried similar with vaseline I always seemed to have to add a touch of micro and or paraffin to some or most of the beeswax to rid the first shot 1/2 to 3/4 in HIGH issue.....we shall see how it all compares Goo V.S Vaseline though.


Just to be clear I do not think it is soap in general that causes the innaccuracy. I have had some real good luck with minor soap inclusive lubes it is the +8+ percentages is when I see it rear it's ugly little head. I have not found the "balance" that I seek YET with goo/soap, but I feel soap will be in and about the 5% area (for here). Not sure how that small amount would compare with what you need down there, not enough proably.

FYI....I do not normally test melt temp, just not needed here. When our humidity combines with 90+ heat I just do not do much shooting....SWMBO and family is the only reason I do not live FARTHER north than what I do.

another FYI....I have been doing most my testing on the upper end of cast velocity, have not done much at sub 2.2K in 7mm,30,35 cals....figured I would swing for the fence first then see how they work in the infield later.


I'll try asap,
Mike

[geargnasher]

Thanks, Mike, I appreciate the input and the work. Remember too that it really doesn't matter if "Extreme Lube" is made from Gila Monster spit and Polar Bear grease, soap and AG, or that polyethylene glycol stuff Lamar has, it just matters for the purpose of this thread that it makes muster with the criteria we all agreed on in the beginning. IOW, it doesn't have to be MY way, or any particular one's way, as long as it does the job we ALL ask of it. Lubes that just work at high velocity in extreme cold to moderate weather doesn't help the quest at all and only adds to confusion here even though they might be exactly what many people in cooler climates need. If the quest was a "must be my idea" thing I'd just do it in private and post the results when I was done! The only time I'm ornery about instructions is when someone volunteers to test a particular formula EXACTLY to compare DIRECTLY to something I or someone else is trying out to verify my results, other than that, please take the liberties your experience dictates to improve on things. Many heads are better than mine, that's why we're here.

The AG, as you know, does lower the melt point of the waxes quite a bit and without a significant amount of soap in there stuff goes runny really quickly here in hot weather. I don't think you really need anything like this where you live, but keep in mind a lot of folks experience both temp extremes, or at least hunt in below freezing weather (rarely near zero) and punch paper, piggies, or other varmints in the heat of summer, often during the middle of day, so THOSE are the folks this thread is aimed to please with a single formula. 8% total soap is a whole lot better than nothing in the heat, but 25-35% is much better if we can make it work. I'm not saying you MUST make all formulas with that much soap at all, just sharing what I've found regarding melt tests and the needs some of us have for heat stability in loaded ammo.

The info about adding a titch of microwax or paraffin to keep that high flyer at bay is interesting. I don't know about you, but several of us are having LOW first-shot flyers in the cold with my soap lubes and slight variants, or with too much slippery oil in the mix. This brings up another point that myself and one other have observed: Shooting Ivory/AG/paraffin/K2 ester lube in a barrel seasoned previously with one of the beeswax/Ivory/AG lubes results in a one-hole group up to ten rounds, then opens up and stabilizes at a slightly smaller aggregate than the beeswax lube. I've done it twice in two guns, same results. It's like the beeswax makes conditions just right for the paraffin lube for a few shots. Shooting Beeswax/paraffin blend at 50/50 ratio is very reliable and stable regarding groups, but isn't all that accurate overall, at least with the blend I tried. It should be perfect, but it's not. I did have castor oil in that one paraffin/beeswax mix though, so that might explain the issues. Maybe a Beta mix with 1/6 bw, 1/6 canning paraffin 1/3 Ivory, and 1/3 AG would be worth a try. Might have to do that if I don't find a better petrol wax to go with in the meantime.

Keep swinging for the fence, you know a lot of lubes will do 2200 fps just fine but not much more, but if it will handle 2600 it's likely to be good down to at least 1800. If it's soft enough, it will still work in pistols, too. I don't mind having a do-all pistol lube and a do-all rifle lube since I have a bunch of different sizers, but having a summer and winter formula sucks because then I have to keep each kind of AMMO. In the end, I'd like to keep certain sizers set up with dies more or less permanently, and use the same lube in all of them for pistols, rifles, etc. since I shoot a lot of pistol calibers in long guns. Extreme lube really should cover all the bases if mainly for others who only have one sizer, so I think we should keep focus on rifle AND low pressure pistol performance. Some may not think it's possible to cover all the pressure/caliber bases, but I'm quite certain it is.

Figuring out for sure if the AG or the soap is the problem will go a long way to getting the SL series stuff to shoot in the cold. Lemme know when you get a chance to find out, I'll do the same but my tests will be in warmer weather.

Ian

[btroj]

Made a couple batches just now.

1 oz paraffin, 1 oz AG, 1/2 oz Ivory, 1 1/2 tes K2. This turns out to be a vey pale blue color rather than the green of the normal SL series. It seems a bit dry at first but it needs to sit overnight to really be able to tel.

1 pz paraffin, 1 oz Ivory, 1/2 oz AG, 1/2 oz Vaseline, 1 1/2 tes K2. This made up more like the "normal" SL series in that it had a distinct "grits" phase before t went liquid. It gelled faster than any SL I have made before. It had a prolonged and distinct "snot" phase to it. This is totally different from any SL I have made, they usually gel and set up quickly but don't have the snotty, greasy look to them.

I want to see of changing the soap content makes a difference in my gun. I also wanted to see of reducing the AG in favor of some Vaseline would make a difference.

At this point I figure anything is fair game to try. Gonna be 45 tomorrow but windy. Good groups might be tought to shoot. If nothing else I can look for vertical, that seems to be the issue right now.

Brad

[357maximum]

The weather flat sucks here...monsoon season is in full effect and it is a cold windy monsoon. I worked out in it all day and it was BIG SWEAR WORD miserable. Think I am gonna go curl up with a good book until my lights go out. Cannot think too hard right the moment, but I need to know what percentage of soap (figuring an average mix of wax/oil) do you think would be minimum for where you are at?

I have a 20 inch 1894 marlin cowboy 357, 19 inch 38 special H&R, 18 inch 30 Badger (30 luger rimmed) and a few other pistol caliber long guns to test....when I get there. I have not seen too many "good" lubes that will handle the fence without handling the infield pretty well. That is why I start at the "difficult" and work my way down. Just the way I like to do it....nothing more.


Comparing some old targets/data from when I was trying to copy a rather famous lube awhile back....(epic fail btw) I noticed I actually had better groups with a soaped version of the old NRA lube formula (1/3 each bw/vaseline/paraffin) than what I have gotten with the assemblee goo versions on average. My soap was only 1 or 2 ounces of the 19-20 total ounces in the mix I said to self was as good as I could get it and put it to rest. I NEVER TRIED "SUPER SOAPING" that exact lube .....have you played in that arena? Might be a second/third choice if the AG does not pan out PERFECT for both the north and the south. I tried super soaping several greases and some alox 350 based lubes and was not too gung ho on any of them, but admittedly I was jumping about rather madly back then. I went through 35+ lbs of beeswax in 6 months or less........OCD MUCH.... YEP

I know one can cover the "pressure spectrum", several diferrent ways .....it is the temp spectrum that has been the royal fem de' dog for me. I hope some breakthrough can fix that both in the south and in da north. I just figured I had a curse and could only cover a 80-90 degree window and kinda resigned myself to live with it. Until ya'll re awakened the crazy anyway......thanks for that btw


I have never ever not even once seen a low first shot flyer that was not my fault with any other product than the AG mixes.......color me stumped. I cannot re-create the low 1st shot everytime 100% either.....just plum stumped on that one.

BTW...I am keeping all recipes seperate and those with some promise will be tested again this summer at 90degrees with stuupid humidity. Just gonna have to leave the AC off in the shootin shack I spose.


People working at this from different angles is likely what is gonna solve the riddle. I will keep working with things I can spell and pronounce until one of yall says YOU GOTTA TRY THIS. This thread has really broadened the vocabulary for me...maybe some day I can pronounce some of the words.



My normal test route is to "waste" 10 rounds at a steel plate. Then I consider the bore to be accustomed to the lube and get serious. I would not likely notice residual/previous lube effects on the new lube unless it was severe.

[357maximum]

The 50/50 and the 60/40 BW/AG mixes are both a bit "slimy" feeling. I will mix up a small batch of 75/25 for when I get the chance to launch some test rounds before I hit the hay tonight. I have some gut feeling about what they will do, but I will remain Swiss until I know for sure. My 308Spaniard will tolerate a bit of slime and my 35 whelen detests it ...so I will start with them two I guess. My 35 whelen will shoot pure beeswax as long as it is hot out...say 90+ or so, but we have humid heat....not sure if dry heat would change that fact....a question I do not intend to find the answer to personally. I know I will melt.

[geargnasher]

That low first shot flyer with some versions of the SL series is just flat strange, isn't it? I'm with you, almost always IF I have a first shot flyer, and IF I'm sure it's due to lube, it's almost always an inch or more high and often slightly wide of the group to the left or right at about 11 or one o-clock.

Something is obviously changing the friction characteristics of the bore and therefore the pressure and the way the powder burns. Maybe it's just the cool, tighter bore? Maybe the actual surface characteristics are remaining the same, but the SL series with 1/3 AG and 1/3 soap are leaving the bore so dry that it's literally a matter of dimensional tolerance affecting the first shot?

I'm not exactly sure how much soap content, just looking at soap and nothing else, it takes to make a lube sufficiently heat-stable for use next to the gates of Hades, but I do know that Felix lube will drip out of a case mouth at about 140F and it's about 5% soap. Joe's lube and my soap lubes are in the 30-35% range and they don't even sweat at 160F, although they get a lot more soft. A lot depends on the melt point of the wax, the modifier, and how much oil is present, but I'd say that 20% is probably a minimum if following that particular road to heat tolerance, and more would be better. One thing I really like about the PEG lube (Glycol) concept Run had is with a heavy enough version it doesn't need any metal soap to be virtually melt-proof, and therefore wouldn't have the possible side effects of over-soaped lubes. Of course it's near impossible to work with or modify, too. There's a flaw in every plan, isn't there?

I've been thinking about the old NRA formula a lot in the past couple of months, and Barry Darr's lube too. Darr is what led me to try paraffin to tighten the groups. We haven't come up with a designation for it, but the 50/50 beeswax/paraffin with AG and soap is essentially a soaped NRA 50/50, and Brad's latest iteration of paraffin, Vaseline, AG, K2 and Ivory is essentially a soaped Darr lube. The AG is doing something good, but either too much or it or not enough of something else. I think the substitutions for part of it with the sucky modern white Vaseline will help, and if it's made with straight paraffin you have a soaped Darr lube with ester oil, and if you do the 50/50 beeswax and paraffin with the same, Vaseline-modified AG and soap, then you basically have a soaped NRA lube with a touch of extra softening agent.

It might do to add back so more slick stuff, like regular heavy napthenic oils (bar oil, Lucas, STP, etc.) and see how that does with the first shot flyer. If we can put something in there that usually throws the first shot high it might cancel the AG's tendency to throw them low. maybe. Castor oil tends to fling the first one high if too much is used, and the Sl-61 was flat awful at dropping the first one way low and stringing once the barrels got seasoned well with it, so I'm not sure.

I'm going to shoot some of that AG/beeswax or maybe just AG/paraffin this weekend and see how it does, then go from there. Ten shots is usually plenty to season a bore, especially if it was wiped out first, so the next five or ten is a good indicator of how the lube is going to do in the long run. I can't believe how many times I've been shystered by a bughole group made right after changing lubes, only to find that when things settle in it isn't so great.

Gear

[btroj]

That fist group gets you all excited and the second breaks your heart. It sucks.

I need to shoot a bunch of handgun this summer, I'm gonna have lots of lube to use up.

I'm wondering if straight paraffin isn't too poor a lube on its own. Maybe a 25/72 beeswax/ paraffin mix?

If weather permits I will try the new lubes tomorrow. Wind will make for wide groups but I can look for vertical. I find I get a high shot followed by a low one with some of these lubes. When I get first shot flyers they are, as Gear mentioned, usually high and left at 11 o'clock.

[runfiverun]

I got 12 oz of mineral oil to go full lock-up with one 3. whatever oz bar of ivory.
so a 3 or 4 to one ratio might be enough.
we are mainly using a 8 to 3 right now so the soap might do it's job [even cut in half] with the wax addition.
fecmech done a simple lube mix using the A/G and it wasn't quite panning out for him versus the original formula.
so we might be wanting to work it's amount down when using other oils too.
or bring it up when using micro-waxes to modify the wax itself.

[geargnasher]

Good point, the AG did mess with the Simple Lube when subbed for all the Vaseline, but IIRC he was shooting in cooler weather around freezing, too. That right there made me think the AG needs some modification or percentage reduction to help it glide in the cold.

I used some AG the other morning (41F) to coat the seals on a hydraulic cylinder I was repacking at work, MAN it was stiff on that cold metal, wouldn't glide until I put a lot of pressure on it, then it still had a lot of stop-start grabbing issues. Very erratic. All this gives me an idea, I might try modding a little bit of AG with various things and see how it does in the freezer. I have a saw blade that makes a great test surface when frozen, just rub lube-coated boolits on it. Wife freaks out when she sees it in there on top of the ice trays, though!

Brad, if you can get straight paraffin to go into and stay in the lube grooves you're my freakin' hero! It does soften up nicely with a very small addition of Lucas, bar oil, STP, or Vaseline, though.

Gear

[btroj]

I meant a 25/75 ration for the wax in the SL series. Seems something the beeswax does is beneficial to the paraffin based version. Maybe it needs that little it of beeswax to help out a bit.

I will interested to see how the 50/50 AG Vaseline does. It is a bit dry but these lubes all seem to change a bit once they cool and sit some.

[geargnasher]

See Brad, I told you I huffed too much shielding gas today!

Those two lubes you made last are just exactly what I wanted to try next in the SL series, after I test the Flubber some more!

Gear

[btroj]

Those lubes are currently in biggies labeled as Flubber A and Flubber B.
once they first set up they felt too dry and crumbly. Now that they have set for 5 ours or so they have changed in texture. Kneaded between finger and thumb they both are like clay in that they soften and work well. The lower soap version is decidedly softer. I think they both will easily go on as a finger lube.

I womder if a 75/25 AG/Vaseline with a bit of mineral oil would be good too? The mineral oil may change the behavior of the AG in a positive way.

Anyone try the blue AG yet? My parts store said it is special order. I did get 2 pounds more of the green. Just wondering if the additives that increase melt point are causing issues.

Brad

[357maximum]

Ya'll just got to learn how to cheat. With the first lithi-micro-bee+orange oil recipe I was so proud of, I would aim the first shot at the bottom of the 1inch circle. I would then aim the rest just above center of the circle....pretty darn impressive if you weren't paying attention to what I was doing.

Keep shootin, looks like we're a washout here for the immediate future according to the weather guessers.....hopefully all this rain/snow/rain/sleet/rain/hail mix makes the morels grow big and strong this spring.


Thanks for the clarifications on the soap%'s

[geargnasher]

Or use Eutectic's cheat, he reduces the powder charge of the first shot by 4% to cure the first shot in that sub-arctic weather he has! Works dang good, too, judging by the groups he's been turning in.

Tie yourself off to something heavy tonight, sounds like you might float away! It's been so long since the Morels sprouted on my place I think all the spores must be dead. We've had two different major sprouts in 41 years here, both after two or three wet years in a row.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i sent a sample of 61.1 on some boolits south today, and got a pretty favorable report on it yesterday from a 454 revolver.
i emptied out some 44 brass for the micro-atf version yesterday.
so hopefully i can get some of those lube/sized and ready to roll shortly.
i'm going to use the load that showed the lube faults at the transition point before, so maybe we can learn something from that.