"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[felix]

As we know, glycerin is present in the oils typically used for making soap. Adding glycerin into the lube would help BP lubes, but usually corrupts WP lubes. Ivory has (theoretically) all of its glycerin stripped up front from the oils/waxes/whatever before the hydroxides (typically) are applied. Yeah, I bet either sodium or potassium hydroxides are used to make Kirks, and probably the former because of the cost. Zinc stearate is cool because of its tendancy to coagulate lead/tin/etc. I was thinking Kirk used some carbonate instead of some hydroxide, and that could have been zinc carbonate. Potassium stearate might not work kindly with zinc stearate in a lube, especially if some aluminum is present from any source. Is not the Goo an aluminum something? ... felix

[runfiverun]

I think you are recalling the aluminum stearate I was working into the original series of E-lubes.
it consisted of li stearate greases bumped with the 5% aluminum stearate and the addition of the bentone as a friction modifier.

[geargnasher]

Felix, the Assemblee Goo is a blend of two, heavy paraffinic oils, one processed through hydrotreatment and the other simply solvent dewaxed. There are no gellants in there, and I doubt even any polybutene. Basically it's a reverse-engineered, heavy, high melt-point petrolatum.

We can gel the wax/AG with anything we want, I was just using the sodium soap because it was handy, cheap, works well in high percentages, and doesn't contaminate lead when remelting lubed boolits. There might be advantages to using other gellants like antimony stearate, lithium, etc, but from here I can't tell.

Gear

[btroj]

I will play devils advocate here and ask what the benefits of other metal soaps is? The lithium seems to have a habit of making a soft grease at higher temps. Potassium I have no clue. Aluminum has good water resistance it seems.

I like sodium because Ivory is available everywhere!

Do what you must Gear but I don't plan on leaving Ivory without darn good reason. Alternative must also be reasonably available to Joe Average.

[geargnasher]

I'm starting to doubt that it's the lithium itself causing the hot-weather failures, and am thinking more that it's the type of oil (typically group II napthenics) that is the issue. A lithium stearate, 12-hydroxystearate, or complex thickener with a paraffinic mineral oil base might be the bee's knees and not have the issues that lithium automotive/equipment greases tend to have.

But you're right, probably not much point since the sodium grease isn't causing any corrosion or other storage issues and unless we can get a mineral-based brick grease easily it will be too much trouble for the average cast boolit shooter to mess with.

Gear

[btroj]

Yeah, I was right. For once. Now if my wife would only agree........

[Edubya]

I've been reviewing this thread and have several considered the options for the additives; AG, Ivory and BW, being the basic. I have been trying to research some of those additives and came across: "When one focuses on temperature extremes and their telltale signs such as smoking and deposits, the potential applications for the problem solving ester lubricants are virtually endless." http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters...ic-lubricants/
There are many paragraphs that I could have copied and pasted, but this one just rang my bell. You may have already known much of this information but there might be something in the article that brings a new perspective to the possibilities.

EW

[runfiverun]

that is one of my reference sights.
the ester thing really come to light when we were comparing additions that were compatible to the alcohol esters that beeswax is made from.
we really looked at the poe's when we started having oil control issues with the #2 greases even stearating them further, and cutting the wax content.
it wasn't working in the heat.
we then tried pao oils straight without the additives and li-12 stearates.
same issues.
we had to increase wax content to control the free oils the pao's alway's wanted to give off.
this affected the bore condition.
so we went right to the poe's and began making them part of the solution.
even cooking them down concentrating them without their carrier solvents.
they have much better property's for our uses than the pao oils do.
especially as far as burn-off, and core condition.
look at my simple lube a little closer.
changing the Vaseline out for the blue asseemblee goo would be a big step forward in it's make-up.
I have looked that change over pretty hard and want to do it,I just haven't done it yet. [it would be a very,very good lube though]
I have threatened to do it several times, if they had the blue on the shelf at my local store I would have by now.
the SL lubes are just more in line with my thinking right now and getting them to the dry side is more in line with what I think I want.

[Edubya]

The more I study this stuff, the more ignorant I feel! A few days ago I had never heard of thixotropic and today I'm reading all kinds of research and development of the stuff. I have traced it back to another comment made that I really didn't grasp; something about not wanting to send clay down the barrel... Now I'm getting a grasp of the combination of clay and thixotropic: http://www.greenclays.com/. On this site they even have it listed as an internal healing agent! If the human body can use it, how would it be hazardous to use in a steel barrel?

I think that if some of you guys further along on this knowledge should take a look at this and tell us lesser folks why or why not put this in our blend.

EW

[fecmech]

changing the Vaseline out for the blue asseemblee goo would be a big step forward in it's make-up.
I have looked that change over pretty hard and want to do it,I just haven't done it yet.

Funny you should mention that as I just made some this morning. The green goo was subbed directly for the vaseline. I had made some of your "simple "lube and wanted something just a tad less sticky as I size and lube into bulk packs and don't like the bullets sticking to one another. As it sits in the pan it appears less sticky so maybe it will work. I'll know better after I get it into the sizer and lube a bunch of bullets. Your simple lube and the Beta SL version(no oils just Goo) shoot better out of my .357 lever than my hard lube mix of Magma and CR( at least in our mid 40's temps).

[runfiverun]

I have been threatening to improve the simple lube for quite some time.
and you done one of the two things I wanted to try to improve it.
the lube really was just a response to several pm's I had gotten about just making a versatile lube [for pan and sizer lubing] with easy to get ingredients and simple cooking directions.

let us know in one of the two threads if you will fecmech

EW.
most of those clays are bentonite [kitty litter]
some of our earlier efforts started by attempting to,, well. mash up kitty litter
we got a better version of it to try and started using it as a friction modifier.
to increase [not de-crease] friction.
I know what you mean about the more you learn the less you know, there has been some late nights reading msds sheets, that above sight, and several others.
if we weren't sharing the information with each other we wouldn't make much headway.

[Bigslug]

I think we're way past the point of me being able to offer much technical input, but I think we need to consider some logistical issues for your testing.

You've made a lot of headway, but you ran out of winter, and there were a number of posts about the cold weather testing remaining unfinished.

Keeping this in mind, and considering what you DID learn last winter, I think it would be wise to make it a mission to nail down a certain number of "maybe" lubes this summer, and have them standing by for when Jack Frost shows up again.

Unless of course, we can find a dedicated handloader who lives in the Southern hemisphere. . .

[runfiverun]

i know a couple, one would be perfect but he doesn't use grease grooved boolits.
if any of our aussie or NZ members wanna help we could send some samples.
i just sent two samples up further north for some objective third party testing.

[geargnasher]

I think we're way past the point of me being able to offer much technical input, but I think we need to consider some logistical issues for your testing.

You've made a lot of headway, but you ran out of winter, and there were a number of posts about the cold weather testing remaining unfinished.

Keeping this in mind, and considering what you DID learn last winter, I think it would be wise to make it a mission to nail down a certain number of "maybe" lubes this summer, and have them standing by for when Jack Frost shows up again.

Unless of course, we can find a dedicated handloader who lives in the Southern hemisphere. . .

Yep, you're right. I have this huge question mark hanging over my head about what will fix the cold flyer. I was working along with the beeswax-based soap lube, adding and subtracting the lube oils methodically same as Run and Brad have been doing, and got the lube going very consistently with just beeswax, AG, Ivory, and some ester-based two-stroke oil (Maxima K2 'cuz I can get it three towns over and not pay shipping). The groups were shrinking, and the flyers had gone away. Thought I had it. Then I loaded five rounds of SL-62 which is just paraffin, soap, and AG in equal parts and shot a 3/8" hole at a hundred yards. The SL with only K2 was averaging around an inch which was phenomenal for that gun and boolit. Subsequent tests showed a hint of stringing, and didn't get tiny again until the barrel was warmed. It still shot as good as the beeswax formula with K2, actually better because the beeswax made round groups and the SL-62 made very narrow strings. I think it might just have been a load adjustment thing to bring it together, but then it warmed up again. Grrrrr. Then it started raining. Today was beautiful and I had to work all day. grrr.

Maybe tomorrow I'll get in some more testing, the it will be on to finish the summertime testing. By late spring, Run and I should have some new test mules and we can perfect some summer formulas and then see how they do when it gets cool again. We'll get there.

Gear

[runfiverun]

tim got some sample cases and sent some numbers off to the reamer cutter.
the more he tried to fix things the worse they got
I think he has settled down to the big picture now.
ohhh, more importantly he got his electrical issues fixed up today.

[DrCaveman]

Man, that was exhausting!

Just got through catching up with the most recent 25 pages or so of this thread. Lots and lots of info here.

Since i cant contribute in any way as far as new ingredients or techniques, can i make a couple of posterity-based suggestions? Maybe this can wait until the grail is found, or maybe you are ready for it now

1. A glossary regarding the acronyms you guys have begun using to describe various ingredients you have either found or formulated yourselves. As someone not following along every step of the way, i found it necessary to go back several posts or pages many times to remind me what was being talked about. I imagine the number of people in a similar boat is increasing

2. A concise thread outlining the various (relatively successful) recipes you have tested during the quest. Of course no need to repeat recipes already out there, nor dead-end modifications of existing recipes. It seems that you have already exceeded the performance of most commercial/homebrew lubes and that alone is good enough for most new casters.

The other thing this thread makes me realize: i gotta get off my duff and buy some rural property. I cant imagine being able to do this type of testing when i drive 30 minutes each way to shoot. Gotta be able to shoot off my porch. Sure many of you make the sacrifice and i sure as hell appreciate it, working all week sucks.

One last thing. I love printed books. With a bunch of editing i think i just got done reading the groundwork for a serious authority on Cast Bullet Lubrication. Who is up for the editing? Might as well begin now because it will take a while. Maybe by next winter the recipe will be nailed and it will be right in time for a pre-christmas printing run

[OLPDon]

Dr.
You nailed it for the most part for me. I have to drive 45 min to 1 hr to shooting range so testing is more of a test of driving then shooting.
As for returning to past post have to do that more often then I like. I tried to make a composition of: the quest for and some other threads that seem to fit into “The Quest" A Book indeed would be in order & "The Movie The Quest" even better............ From Kitchen Range to the Shooting Range as of 106 pages that we get to read & I am sure the hundreds of unseen pages, NASA would be proud of there work.

So to all those who have been working hard putting in there time & funds into finding the end all lube. Producing a Book with there names inscribed would be a keep sake as well as a great referance guide.


Don

[btroj]

A book? Heck, my line recipes are on the back of an envelope and I then write them on a ziplock bag to store the lube in.

Maybe after this is all done Gear and Run will compile their notes but I doubt it. There are many failures, a fire, and who knows what else involved in the quest thus far.

I am not in a position to say what their notes will become bu I am sure the reading is much less interesting than many assume.

This from a guy who just made a new batch that is different from any I have tried thus far.

So many batches, so little time.

[runfiverun]

man a book would be a full time project.
there are other threads connected to this one where information in this thread is omitted.
and there would be no way to put all the p.m.'s together where the rest of the information is err was.
there was a long thread that I started a year or so back that lead to this one [I wouldn't even wanna go look for it], and my 'the something' sticky has some of the early information for this thread too.
my simple lube thread has a good break down on the where/what the middle modifier part comes into play.
that is about all the threads I can think of that has some of this info in them too.
i think maybe one of the bens red threads has a break down on it's ingredients.

maybe a final synapsis would be possible, but we are still working on what is doing what in some of these iterations of the soap lube.

[btroj]

Run is right. The info was not all in a single place. Between a few threads, PMs, and other correspondence it is too diffuse for easy compilation.

This all did start with a thread by Run a year or more ago where I mentioned cold barrel flyers. It was a massive case of thread drift that lead to this. Heck, my response in his thread wasn't really relevant to what he asked but it did do some good? It also cost a couple guys about of money and a small pyrotechnic dislay.

I gained a couple friends and learned a bunch. It was well worth the effort, what little I did.