"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Seabee1960]

Felix,

It seems to me that we have folks of two extreme camps trying to share the same public space... I get grief from the purists because I refuse to use black powder- I made by following a mule around with a bucket and saving his pee- in my Trap Door Springfield and grief from the techno geeks because I suggested an off the shelf bullet mold to a guy who bought a gun show 98 Mauser in 30-06, that he probably spent $200 on, and was looking for a good load. I offered no insult to anyone and I understand pedantry is common in people who love the esoteric.

I think that more people will rediscover bullet casting as commercial ammunition disappears from the civilian market. This said you have to walk before you can run and a little dose of convention might keep new readers interested in this forum.

As far as being an old man…. I don’t see any twenty year olds giving up sports cars and girl chasing to devote their evenings to Winchester High wall collecting or Krag rifle restoration. I was directed to this forum when searching for load data for a 71/84 Mauser. This should give you an idea of how people discover this sight in the first place.

I guess the right thing to do is to just shut up and not participate and leave the discussion to the experts just like we do with the politics of our once great nation.

[felix]

Yeah, SB, that's the spirit! Some threads are for beginners, and others are for experimenters. We just have to know where we fit to be of help. This pedantry thing is personal, you know. Some folks like to think out loud, and I am glad they do. I am sure you remember those days when someone talked about it all the time and we got jealous of his "conquests". Well, I saw some of these cocksmen types in action later in life and boy was I surprised! So, you never know. ... felix

[Seabee1960]

Felix,

If you and want to get all techno then what you are looking for is Aero shell Grease 33 per SAE AMS 3052. We use it at work to lube ball screws for Flight Control Actuators. It has great lubrication properties in extreme conditions over wide temperature changes. It is a Synthetic Lithium based material and will outperform any hydrocarbon on the planet as a lubricant. The problem is that it is somewhat viscous at ambient room temperature and will degrade quickly if mixed with the wrong thickener. It is also freakishly expensive to buy outside the bulk quantities we get it in and is not all that available to the tyro in his basement with a hot plate and an old cast iron skillet. ( Guys like me without jobs in aerospace that is.) If you want to try your hand at some respond with a mailing address and I will ship you 100 grams or so to experiment with.

No hard feelings

[Seabee1960]

Felix,

ped·ant·ry/ˈpɛdntri/ Show Spelled [ped-n-tree] noun, plural ped·ant·ries.
1. the character, qualities, practices, etc., of a pedant, especially undue display of learning.
2. slavish attention to rules, details, etc.
3. an instance of being pedantic: the pedantries of modern criticism.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1575–85; Italian pedanteria. See pedant, -ry


Just so you dont think I am a pervert as well as a koot.

[geargnasher]

This thread is documenting the research and development of a cast boolit lubricant with qualities not all found in one commercial or DIY recipe. The Abstract and goals were outlined in post #1 of this thread. Yes, it is esoteric. Yes, the nature of the discussion and experiments are highly specialized and unique. There is no direct lubrication analogy in industry to draw upon, therefore much of the methodology involved must be invented as we go. The challenge is daunting for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that only a limited amount of factors can be evaluated empirically, and so we must substitute the theoretical for unknowns (and sometimes WAGs and intuition) and establish more tests to eliminate variables. Most of this has involved establishing functional theories, testing them, and discovering new ones. We can't be inside of the gun to know what's going on, so this is also an exercise in forensics.

So how someone can visit this thread, present ideas, receive feedback, and then proceed to insult those giving the feedback and further name-call, label, and criticize them is beyond my ability to understand. If you have an idea that might help, great! We'd love to hear it. Most of the common stuff has already been evaluated and we can explain those experiences.

BUT, please don't jump in here and start name-calling and criticizing. Nobody did that to you.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Felix,

If you and want to get all techno then what you are looking for is Aero shell Grease 33 per SAE AMS 3052. We use it at work to lube ball screws for Flight Control Actuators. It has great lubrication properties in extreme conditions over wide temperature changes. It is a Synthetic Lithium based material and will outperform any hydrocarbon on the planet as a lubricant. The problem is that it is somewhat viscous at ambient room temperature and will degrade quickly if mixed with the wrong thickener. It is also freakishly expensive to buy outside the bulk quantities we get it in and is not all that available to the tyro in his basement with a hot plate and an old cast iron skillet. ( Guys like me without jobs in aerospace that is.) If you want to try your hand at some respond with a mailing address and I will ship you 100 grams or so to experiment with.

No hard feelings

Cast boolits in a gun barrel aren't the same as the bearing points in flight control actuators, or any other condition where two hardened steel surfaces bear against one another. That has given us some problems. Our application is most similar to high-speed babbit bearings, but for that, pressurized oil is used. Heavy greases of the NLGI 5-6+ are typically used for low-speed babbit or plain bearings. Soft lead alloy bearing against steel while sliding at 500-3,000 fps and withstanding very high contact presures and brief temperatures of up to 3500 degrees F. is a tough row to hoe, and involves different requirements than the Uber greases can deliver. Most of the PAO-based lithium-thickened lubricants are incompatible with just about anything else, both the gellant and the oil itself, which makes compounding of things like AeroShell 33 a challenge.

Since you have access to the product, why don't you try some basic compounding with beeswax and do some range testing? I suggest beeswax because you may find that petroleum waxes won't blend with the oils in that grease and will separate upon cooling. In any event, I'd like to know more.

And while most of us might resemble your "Tyro" comment, I find it insulting, unnecessary, and resent the hell out of it AND your whole attitude. The Quest is for "Everyman", something the average boolit-casting Joe can make and use from common ingredients. That was one of the specific requirements we polled and outlined in the post I made on the previous page.

Gear

[btroj]

As a fellow Tyro I am insulted as well. This is a sharing of information and desire to improve upon the lubes we are currently using.

I don't see how anything we have done here affects anyone not interested in the results.

I am not interested on a specialty lube that isn't easily available. My purpose is to find a lube made from easily purchased ingredients.

I have rarely seen a better example of an absolute troll.

[Lloyd Smale]

so when does the chest thumping stop and the lube recipes come? If you cant agree on which is the best how about a top 5? Technical talk is ok for a while but weve got bullets to lube

[btroj]

Ok Lloyd. I have had good luck so far with this. It involves lots of heat to make it, not much chest thumping. Matter of fact, I don't recall ever chest thumping in making it, using it, or speaking of it.

1 oz ivory soap
1 oa Dr Tranny assemblee goo
1 oz beeswax
5 ml mineral oil
8.75 ml Maxima K2 2 stroke oil

Use a pot bigger than you think you need. Melt the tranny goo and add the oils. Once the stuff is melted and mixed together add the soap. It will foam up a BUNCH. This is why a bigger pot is needed. Stir until the foaming goes down. Keep heating past the "grits" stage as Gear calls it. The mix will keep getting thinner and thinner. It will smoke a bunch too. Keep stirring and hearing until the mix becomes entirely liquid. It may have a string appearance to it but you want a minimum of that stuff. Key is to get it hot enough to totally melt the soap without going too hot and having ignition of the oils. Once it is liquid I remove from the heat and keep stirring. It will quickly thicken up as it gels. Once it cools enough to form a good gel I add the wax and stir tip the wax is melted and mixed in well. I dump it onto a foil pan to totally cool. I have found that more heat seems to do a better job, the rapid heating seems to make it easier to control. I think Gear is using a side burner on a gas grill.
This stuff is easy to make, it just takes a bit of time.
That is the recipe I am using most. I also have made some wih 1/2 beeswax and 1/2 paraffin but haven't had time to shoot it yet.

Some of you need to also know that going out and shooting the same gun, same, load, everything the same except forthe bullet gets boring. I like to shoot a variety of things. I enjoy plinking. I don't shoot every week, I shoot when I can. Testing takes time, lots of time.

Maybe we need to just conduct further business via PM or email. Hate to think we are cluttering the board with a bunch of useless info.

[Jailer]

Well I for one have been following this thread from the beginning with much interest. I'm not smart or experienced enough to participate so keep it coming so I can continue living vicariously through this thread.

[btroj]

Jailer, it has nothing to do with intelligence or experience. This all about desire to better oneself. It is about a basic need to learn, to know, to do better.
Sadly, that kind of natural ambition, drive, and need to know is a dying attribute.

[Doc Highwall]

btroj, which of the Dr. Tranny assembly goo are you using, the blue or the green?

[btroj]

Green. I am tempted to try the blue, just haven't gotten to it yet. So many lubes, so little time......

For those wondering how I made my lube look back a few pages, Gear gave excellent instructions. He even included photos!

[Hamish]

Maybe we need to just conduct further business via PM or email. Hate to think we are cluttering the board with a bunch of useless info.

I think you know the answer to that one mister.

[Seabee1960]

Loyd,

Here is a blast from the past and it works very well. The problem is that to buy the minimum quantity of one of the ingredients you are out $60 and have enough product to make 5 lbs of lube. I would suggest getting together with some fellow casters and splitting up the cost.
This lube formula came to me via some brothers in the Schuetzen game here in Utah. The original lube came from Mr. Charles Dell – It is known as as Dell # 59 - back in the glorious past and was modernized by a Mr. Deane Popma in the 1980’s
Popma #6-59 is the name of the mixture
75 grams Yellow Beeswax
50 grams Synaceti 116 http://www.sciencestuff.com/prod/Chem-Rgnts/C2735
50 grams Lanolin
25 grams lead or Zink Sterate http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...g=en&region=US

25 grams Kirks Castile soap
25 grams Castor oil.
The Kirks soap makes the formula stiff at 120 Degrees F. If there is one miracle ingredient here it is the Synthetic Sperm Whale wax. My understanding is that as little as 5 % by weight addition of this substance will improve any organic lubricant. Get the bees wax hot but don’t let it smoke. Stir in the Kirks soap Lanolin and Sterate. And the Synaceti flakes and the Castor oil. No special equipment needed. Just time .
I post this with some trepidation; ½ the readers will be angry because… well I really don’t know why.

[btroj]

I would bet the syncetti is Cetyl esters. This is something we have discussed in the past and will be looked at in the future.

Ever think about how much testing Dell did to finalize that recipe? How many formulas were tried before settling on that one?

I welcome the info. Any honest sharing of information is a good thing. Different ideas are welcome.

[Seabee1960]

Btroj,
I know that this formula is old timey and that it works. The world's sperm whale population was about wiped out in the early 20th century to satisfy the demand for this lubricant. It had to be made synthetic or there would be no more Physeter Macrocephalus. Mr. Popma went through about 17 iterations to get this formula and he started with a base line that was very effective.
As I stated earlier I am a lube novice. I try what is recommended or has been given me. I do a little experimenting with chemistry but I am a wizard on a South Bend Model B lathe.
I don’t want to be a troll or get in anyone’s face but I have been the new guy in plenty of places and I don’t want to get rolled by the cool kids with the fast cars and hot chicks either. Thanks for giving me a chance.
Regards,

Monte

[geargnasher]

This isn't a typical armchair commando circle jerk, Monte, I'm sure you've seen plenty of those though. This isn't about about showing off, bragging, "being cool" etc. Just a few guys here earnestly trying to accomplish something that hasn't been done before. That is becoming increasingly difficult to document here because of the periodic trolling of a few agenda-driven busybodies. There are a couple of bona-fide lubrication engineers helping out here, but the rest of us are self-educated in the field of boolit lube. I didn't understand fully how metal salts become grease gellants until I started studying this stuff about a year ago. Huge learning curve with lubricants, but when you start observing certain failures in common formulas and search for the cause, a deeper understanding of the chemistry and physics at work is required. We're not here trying to one-up each other on cool terminology (even though we sometimes have to make up terms to adequately describe things), this is just the way it worked out. Every field has its own jargon, boolit lube technology is no different.

Now, I do have some questions about the Schuetzen lube. Have you shot it in pistols? Rifles with fixed ammunition? How about high velocity? How does it handle extreme cold and heat? Does it have a tendency to throw the first shot out of the group from a cold barrel, clean barrel, or previously fouled cold barrel? How does it handle a jump to the rifling, or a lot of case neck clearance? These are all things we're interested in because we have literally dozens of very good lube formulas, both commercial and homemade, that will cover 70-90% of what most of us do, but not ALL. All of the commercial offerings fall short in the hot storage department except for possibly one that I haven't heat-tested yet. Some others have their own limitations depending on a variety of factors.

We need all the help we can get here, but in order to help with this particular quest, please consider our goals, as I outlined back on post 1350 (I think) and re-quoted again a page or two back. If you have a new idea for an ingredient (such as the AeroShell grease), or a formula that you think meets those criteria then we'd love to hear about it. Otherwise, you might consider starting a different thread for your particular topic.

BTW, synthetic spermecetti IS cetyl esters, and it's dirt cheap.

Gear

[felix]

What caustic base was/is used to make the Kirks? ... felix

[btroj]

I looked for that Info too Felix. I bet it was NaOH. If not sodium then potassium.

Other than the oil base used to make the soap it isn't really that different from Ivory. The fatty acid is eith longer or shorter than the one in Ivory.

The Kirks does have glycerin and some fragrance in it. Not sure how the glycerin makes a difference or if it does.

I like the Ivory because it is pretty much a single ingredient. To my mind that makes it easier to work with as we don't have other stuff in it to worry about.