"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[bruce381]

gear still here reading all the posts but just not much to add. benn shooting steel lately lots of fun.

[runfiverun]

actually BYU-IDAHO.
Boise state is 300 sumthin miles away.
rexburg is a hand it to someone and have their kid test it away.

[geargnasher]

Got a new test mule today, just for fun. Loaner, unfired 1966 Winchester 94 100 year anniversary edition that needs some TLC and feeding. I'll compare lube and loads between it an my Marlin for the next couple of months, side by side in pitted vs. new barrels.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ok then, we'll contact you when that happens. Don't call us, we'll call you!

Later,

Gear

[btroj]

Gear, I don't have an outbound line

[Lloyd Smale]

Many hear know im not verals best friend. I will also say that ive used alot of his lube and its a good lube but i dont personaly think its a bit better then lars lubes at half the price. All that said ill end with this. It would be very much unfair to post or even pass on his recipe if you do figure it out. He took the time to experiment and find something that works and make his living selling it. I know theres probably not a copyright to protect him but a guy should have enough honor not to do something like that.

[btroj]

I don't think anyone here intends to pass on Veral's recipe. Run was replying to a request for compairisons.
Some, like Veral, do the work to find good lubes.

I agree entirely that telling others how to replicate Veral's lube would be dishonorable.

[45 2.1]

It would be very much unfair to post or even pass on his recipe if you do figure it out. He took the time to experiment and find something that works and make his living selling it. I know theres probably not a copyright to protect him but a guy should have enough honor not to do something like that.

Lloyd, from the reading I've done and some other conversations I've had with folks, both Veral's LBT Blue and Beartooth lube are offshoots of Paco Kelley's Apache Blue. It's my understanding that he gave the recipe to both men. They both may have modified it further also. A spectrograph reading of either will not give you the recipe due to some common base materials (which could be quite a few things).

[Hamish]

If I have missed the posting of this earlier in the thread please excuse, but I notice that there are two formulations of Dr. Tranny Assemblee Goo:

http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-185/Dr.+...+Assemblee+Goo

Is everyone using the same color tub?

[runfiverun]

nobody's lube recipes [or major component proportions] will be published.

we made this clear to jeff at voodoo lube also, all we are trying to do is break down the basic ingredients available and test them.

nobody's stuff needs to be aired, they done the research and work, it is theirs.

we/i have put out just the stuff we know or have done ourselves.
personally I don't care if anybody follows the recipes we post, or modify's them or ignores them, or just want's to discuss them.

but I am not going to cut into some ones business with anything I find out.
Lamar.

Hamish.
we are using the green.

[btroj]

Well Said Run

[geargnasher]

Lloyd, we made our stand to protect intellectual property and private enterprise long ago on this thread. Nobody's going to be giving away any secrets. I've reported and had removed one post by a troll here that gave away an individual's trade secret. I know the secret, which is how I recognized it, but I don't exploit it, and there are lots of us who talk about things privately for the furtherment of the project that will not be seen posted on the open forum.

Now, that said, if anyone's commercially available lube can't stand up to what we may be able to create here as an open-source, group effort, well that's too bad. Many people will always choose to buy lube rather than make it, and this won't be for sale, so there will still be plenty of market. The only condition upon which anyone should sell it is if 100% of the net profit goes back to the Gunloads group.

Gear

[btroj]

45 ACP seemed to handle SL61 just fine. The gun stayed cleaner than with some other lubes and it showed no leading after 200 rounds. Not smokey either.
200 SWC with 4 gr Clays.
44 mag showed a hint of lead but that gun and bullet often does, this was less than usual. Accuracy was good. Again, not near as messy as many lubes.

Looks like low pressure or high, handguns will do fine with SL61.

My FIL even asked for a big batch for his own use.

[Lloyd Smale]

I probably should have read the whole thread bugt a 103 pages is a bit much. Maybe someone should consider condensing whats allready been done here and starting a new thread. My appolgys to anyone i may have stepped on.

[btroj]

I can't speak for the others Lloyd but I don't feel stepped on. You raised a legitimate concern. I don't ever want to be seen as taking someone's product and trying to replicate it. Veral runs a business and I don't want to take food off his table.

[Hamish]

I have a nagging intuition that at some point one of the basic variables of this pursuit will have to be revisited.

How much extreme lube is *enough* extreme lube?
Suppose the perfect lube is found and rejected, due to being used with a "modern" lube groove ration boolet, instead of a Keith ratio boolet. At some point, someone with a good math background is going to be able to calculate how much lube is needed for a given bearing surface. The question of how a lube needs to homogenously liquify under initial pressure, (whether this actually happens or not, it is handy to think of it that way), took me to the question of quantity.

I am guessing that it would be all to easy to misidentify the problem as being due to one of boolit fit or some such.

Not trying to hijack, my mind tends to travel the periphery of a problem looking at the variables instead of straight on at the center.

[Doc Highwall]

Well if you have a bullet with 3 grease grooves try lubing only 1 or 2.

[felix]

The amount of lube given for an application is always a problem that cannot be solved in practice. In theory, yes. This is the reason the "extreme" lube must have the effects of zero viscosity after the boolit leaves the gun. In other words, the lube must be gone out of the barrel and off of the boolit upon boolit muzzle exit, no matter how much lube was applied to the boolit. ... felix

[runfiverun]

no you have it right.
one of the variables is lube amount.
a good lube with friction property's [not too slippery] doesn't suffer from varying amounts.
I have added and subtracted lube from several boolits and if the lube is a good one it doesn't affect the outcome.
now back when I was testing the two and three different lubes on one boolit that was a different matter, just changing the order in which lube came first did seem to have an effect on accuracy.
I never did pin that down as to whether it was fling off or build up.
until we started paying attention to the core issue.
and then I started seeing lube smears in a barrel and found I could manipulate it up and down the barrel and even make it go away by adjusting the wetness of the lube.
that lead to the chase of the middle modifier, which has partially lead us to this point.
Eutetics work with barrel roughness and the core theory opened another set of variables and lead to the dryer end of the lube scale.
Gear built a little wear tester which has shown film strength and has lead on to discarding some different ingredients because of their breakdown.

the biggest thing has been friction modifiers, break-down, temperature stability, compatibility, and flow property's.
we went from mixing things into a wax to making the wax part of the lube itself, then modifying the middle of the lube to ebb and flow with temp changes.
we are still testing the core principle on the low vi part of the scale, and looking what is affecting the high visc end of things.
Btroj has been great at giving beta type reports on his rifles/handguns and pointing out issues with another set of known rifles and loads.

that should be the short synapsis of what has happened over the last 2,000 posts.

jeez and I forgot felix's input which has pointed us in the right direction when we got to wandering a bit
too much.
plus bruces generous donations which we never would have gotten much past wax and grease without being able to isolate different modifiers, oil's, bases, and stuff.

[btroj]

Hamish, a good lube should work well no matter how many grooves get lubed. I lube all grooves on the rifle bullets I am testing. I figure if the lube works with troubles with them all lubed then I can always try less later on.

One of the problems is creatingn a lube that meets a wide range of criteria. Going from a 12 K cup 38 special wadcutter to a 36,000K cup 44 mag SWC the on to a variety of rifles froma 22 to 45 gives a wide variety of variables. My personal experience is that the small and lighter the bullet is the more small changes in lube matter. My 45-70 is much less picky than my 32-20.

Throw in milsurps or older riles with dark, rough bores and you have another set of variables.

I want acceptable accuracy over a wide range of temps. It need not be the most accurate under all conditions but I want to know the first shot will be on target at any temp, clean barrel or fouled.