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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #181
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    ...Modifiers like lanolin, carnauba, and sodium stearate need to be employed at the temperature extremes to give the best results.

    Gear
    I don't get it when you claim lanolin to be a modifier that can help lube properties at the temperature extremes. Lanolin is the one thing I've worked with that is extremely sensitive to temperature variation... at least in its pure form. It's hard as beeswax (well not quiet) at room temp during the winter and like Vaseline during the summer.

    MJ

  2. #182
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    MJ, you don't get it because I didn't say it right. I used "temperature extremes" as a general term. If you've been following from R5R's other thread, you will notice that carnauba is a hot-weather stiffener that I blame for cold barrel flyers. Sodium stearate is a hot weather binder. I didn't mention it, but stearic acid is an excellent low-temperature binder/hardnener. Lanolin, even when cold, is sticky and adds pliability to cold lube.

    My point was that the lube formulas we've been using have to have those things added/subtracted/tweaked for best results in all weather conditions, and no single formula works best year 'round.

    Gear

  3. #183
    Boolit Buddy Mugs's Avatar
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    Gear
    I noticed Bruce had mentioned Boron Nitride in one of his posts. I've been using Easy Lube bike chain lube to lube airgun pellets, with good results. I've seen that alot of BR guys have switched from moly to Boron Nitride. The bike lube contains Cerflon which is a PTFE with BN added. Just a thought.
    Mugs
    Shoot only Cast Bullets!

  4. #184
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    boron nitride is the "new" moly it slides on itself quite well and the trick is to get a coating in the bbl and use that in the lube too.
    it does have a lot of open peaks and valleys in it's makeup.
    and there are some advantages to it.
    the issue would still be that the other stuff in the lube will fill those in, and you'd still be back to square one fighting bore condition.

  5. #185
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    We're always going to be battling bore condition on that first shot, but I aim to minimize its effect as much as possible by controlling it as a lube film which can be applied with patch or boolit. If we don't have a complicated, delicately seasoned, dynamic surface, maintaining accuracy will be easier.

    Gear

  6. #186
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    Range report on the bentone/PAG/Graphite: NOT good. Turned the bore into a sewer pipe in ten shots. I swabbed out what I could with a solvent patch and fired ten more with just the bentone/PAG, same results. Interesting thing, though, First round was on target, groups were tight but every third or fourth shot dropped exactly two inches. I figured it was lube purging because I lubed every groove and the oil is very thick, but it might have been lead purging judging by how badly the bore was fouled. This will take some time to clean, probably won't be shooting any more today.

    I'm encouraged by the PAG oil because I prepped the bore with it and the first shot was dead-on in the groups discounting the flyers, and the flyers printed their own tight group directly below. 20 shots is too many for it to be a freak trend. Now, if I could only figure out why it leads.

    Gear

  7. #187
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    My point was that the lube formulas we've been using have to have those things added/subtracted/tweaked for best results in all weather conditions, and no single formula works best year 'round.

    Gear
    Boy, ain't that the truth... or even from early morning to afternoon. Makes one want to start wrapping all their castings in paper.

    MJ

  8. #188
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    I will just stay with my simple lube formula came up with. By volume, 8 ounces each of melted beeswax and hydrogenated coconut (popcorn) butter with one tablespoon of Mobil 1 oil stirred in.

    It is good for BP or smokeless and laughs at this 125+ degree heat without separating or melting here in the Arizona desert.

  9. #189
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    I LIED! Couldn't stand it anymore, so I broke out the de-lead kit and scrubbed the barrel mostly clean (some stubborn deposits in the rifling's trailing-edge groove), and went back out and shot ten of the "Radioactive Zombie Lube" boolits before the sun went completely down. I prepped the bore with some of the BG Universal PAG oil, dry patched, and shot the first one an inch low and a little left at 50-yards, then put the next nine in a ragged hole I could easily cover with a quarter. Some bit if light leading on both sides of the lands near the muzzle, but not bad. Might not have gotten the sewer pipe clean enough before shooting this batch.

    I'm noticing a trend here, beeswax-based lubes are working better than most others. This brings up a point Bruce made several times when we talked on the phone: Usually (in his field of work, Tribology and oil formulation) it's easier to start with something that works most of the time and reformulate it slightly to get it to work under all the necessary conditions than it is to start over from scratch with a different approach. Thinking of the Breox 1000 PAG, it's very, very much like castor oil at room temperature, very viscous and very slick. I'm also thinking about how beeswax works, and how the zombie lube worked. Perhaps I should take the PAG concept and the Beeswax concept and put them together with the heavier PAG in the approximate total oil/wax proportions of the proven Felix lube, but subtract the soap and the lanolin because I don't think they're necessary except when using the much lower VI castor oil. When I get back from town later tonight I'm going to play with that concept some more.

    I'm really disappointed in the clay-based lube, I had high hopes for it since it's so temp consistent and simple to make. Anyone care to theorize as to why it caused so much leading? For all of these tests I'm shooting WD 50/50+1%Sn aged at 18 BHN, sized .311", Hornady Crimp-On checks, .002" neck tension on fireformed, NS'd brass, 28 grains of RX 7, no filler. Load works flawlessly with Felix lube except in cold weather.

    Gear

  10. #190
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    ...I'm really disappointed in the clay-based lube, I had high hopes for it since it's so temp consistent and simple to make. Anyone care to theorize as to why it caused so much leading? For all of these tests I'm shooting WD 50/50+1%Sn aged at 18 BHN, sized .311", Hornady Crimp-On checks, .002" neck tension on fireformed, NS'd brass, 28 grains of RX 7, no filler. Load works flawlessly with Felix lube except in cold weather.

    Gear
    28 grains of Re7 in what size case with what boolit (I ain't got time to go through this whole thread)? All I can really tell you for sure is that lube can definitely influence chamber pressure and the pressure curve in general. Perhaps you should repeat with BHN 13-15?

    MJ

    P.S. I guess I'd like to know at this point whether it makes sense to substitute micro-wax for beeswax without spending the 40 bucks + shipping charges it'll take to put it in my hands, not to mention the time it'll take to whip up a batch of lube. Oh yeah, then there's the selection among the several possibilities of micro wax... I guess I need more time and money. One thing I have noticed though, is that Mineral Oil (heavy or otherwise) ends up as a basic ingredient in lots of stuff and perhaps everyone interested in the ultimate CB accuracy needs at least 2 luber-sizers.
    Last edited by Marlin Junky; 04-14-2012 at 09:29 PM.

  11. #191
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    It is a 30-30, using a proven load for that rifle. That is the only way to have a fair test.

    I am following this with keen interest.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hang Fire View Post
    I will just stay with my simple lube formula came up with. By volume, 8 ounces each of melted beeswax and hydrogenated coconut (popcorn) butter with one tablespoon of Mobil 1 oil stirred in.

    It is good for BP or smokeless and laughs at this 125+ degree heat without separating or melting here in the Arizona desert.
    how does it do at 0*f ??
    some of the hydrogenated oils show promise.
    depending on how much water is in them.

    gear.
    i'm kinda puzzeled by the build up in your bbl.
    i have had a smear spot from carnuba red where the peak pressure drops off in the bbl.
    i wondered if the lube was flowing warm then cooled down and that was where it went from the wet to dry stage leaving the lube build up.

    you might be on that verge the whole time, and it could just be a percentage thing.
    you got's too much [sumthin]
    anyways you might have just seen what runnin out of lube looks like. [literally]

  13. #193
    Boolit Master Marlin Junky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    It is a 30-30, using a proven load for that rifle. That is the only way to have a fair test.

    I am following this with keen interest.
    Hey that's a hot load with all but the lightest boolits!

    MJ

  14. #194
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    mj i have three.
    one is pretty much filled and emptied constantly for these tests.
    the other two are just gathering dust right now.

    my first lube recipe is in post number 150.
    bees wax is not the hold back, but i am still not sure it will make the swing without modification.
    the micro waxes are intriguing, but pcking the right one,or being able to modify it would be essential.
    if you could find one that had the viscosity between b-wax and soy wax scented candles.
    it would be about right.
    i mix the soy[candle]wax with b-wax now at a ratio of 5 to 1 for my o.d. green lube.
    you can use sodium stearate as a lube with it and not have the hardening it usually causes.

  15. #195
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlin Junky View Post
    Hey that's a hot load with all but the lightest boolits!

    MJ
    At least I thought that was the gun he was using. I do know people who use that load in a 30-30 to quite good effect.

    I suppose I should let Gear speak for himself?

  16. #196
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    i think it's a 30-30 too.
    i use 27 grs of aa-2230 in mine, so he's not too far off my loads.
    the rx-7 is probably a bit better in the heat than the 2230 is.

  17. #197
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    Nope, the "test mule" has been my newer M-70 .30-'06. I forgot to list the boolit again, it's the Lee 312-185 that I have to use in order to get the right sized bore-riding section for this overbored rifle (.301"). One of two hardcore "proven" loads with that boolit are 29.5 -ish RX 7 for around 2,050 fps and 39.5 of H4350 for about 2,020 fps. I use 27 grains in my .30-30 with 165-grain boolits to good effect, but that rifle isn't exactly a 100-yard tack driver, about 2.5 MOA is all it will do even since I mounted the 4x scope on it. I backed off on the RX 7 a bit for this test to drop it under 2K fps and make Larry Gibson happy I suppose I should really go back and try it again with the H4350 to stretch out the pressure curve a bit.

    I think maybe the pressure was letting off too soon, or maybe I had too many grooves lubed with the clay stuff. It might not take that much of it, and too much might be galling up on itself, superheating, and ripping the bands off of the boolits. I'm not throwing anything out yet, but I'd like to test the more promising stuff first. If I could make the clay lube work I'd prefer it over anything else. I did notice a distinct grey "puff" of something right out of the muzzle every shot, figured it was the lube bailing out of the grooves. Might have been the lube bailing out before the boolit quite cleared the gun, though.

    Still thinking about the Mobil 1 grease, but the only thing realistically compatible with the lithium complex thickener is wax or other lithium gellants. Bentone is compatible with nothing, and the aluminum stearate/lithium complex is a no-go according to every grease chart I've ever looked at in my life. Might have to try the Lithi-Bee thing again and try to figure out why it didn't work so well when I tried it before, I think lube purging was causing the problems.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 04-14-2012 at 11:57 PM.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    how does it do at 0*f ??
    some of the hydrogenated oils show promise.
    depending on how much water is in them.

    gear.
    i'm kinda puzzeled by the build up in your bbl.
    i have had a smear spot from carnuba red where the peak pressure drops off in the bbl.
    i wondered if the lube was flowing warm then cooled down and that was where it went from the wet to dry stage leaving the lube build up. Remember what Bruce said about gelling more under extreme shear pressure? That might be it, too.

    you might be on that verge the whole time, and it could just be a percentage thing.
    you got's too much [sumthin] Wouldn't be the first time I've run things just over or under the ragged edge and missed the sweet spot by a millimeter.
    anyways you might have just seen what runnin out of lube looks like. [literally]
    I dunno. I'm wondering if we're the first people in history to use clay in boolit lube, or maybe there's a good reason why it isn't mainstream. Even though it doesn't melt, it would be a cinch to extrude hollow sticks and cram them in a sizer, so that isn't the issue. I'm thinking the wax matrix just works better as a "carrier" for boolit lube than the solid thickeners do, still not sure about hard soap grease. I can still try the Aluminum Stearate/PAG grease I made, that would answer some questions since the Aluminum Stearate is the only thickener I have that will make a straight, true "grease" thick enough to test. I'd like to know if the metal soap matrix by itself is good enough for a carrier if made thick enough. The J-lube showed some promise in that direction, I just don't know if that's the best carrier for the full temp range needed here.

    Gear

  19. #199
    Boolit Master bruce381's Avatar
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    try 10-15% wt Al stearte and PAG heat the AL stearte to about 250F to melt it in then let gel overnight, the AL sterate will gel without the shearing needed for th others, BY the way most all NON melt greases are bentone based.

  20. #200
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    Thanks Bruce, I didn't think about heating it, I just mixed it cold and "smeared" it together, it made a nice, thick, creamy paste about like room-temp cream cheese.

    Gear

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
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