"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[geargnasher]

Blended Waxes never replied to my email last week requesting further info on testing. I'll get back on their case about it. I think $1K to 1500 is probably about right, no telling how much a small run of a duplicate would cost, if it proves to be the petroleum wax that I think it is.

Gear

[.30/30 Guy]

I will contribute to the testing fund.

[btroj]

I will also, if it is deemed viable to do.

[geargnasher]

I'm not planning to spend that kind of dough finding out what the wax is, but it might be worth a few hundred for analysis. White Label was interested in this info, too a couple years ago...Glenn might be talked into contributing as well.

Gear

[Grump]

Ok, thats cool, I seem to remember that members have done it before. The main point of my question is that I am given to understand that the (primary?) ingredient is unobtainium. Maybe 45 2.1 can shed some light here,,,,,

Don't invite further comment from that quarter. There's a bit of friction over the past couple of years I guess, almost as bad IMO as you can get without cussing or snide comments impugning character & motives, over at a place I never heard of but won't bother even lurking in, beyond556.com or somesuch. Last exchange we had here involving that Unobtanium deteriorated into a repeat of their spat over "IS!" and "IS NOT!" beeswax.

Short story, a reported 5 tons of the stuff became available over in the Fallon area (Naval Air Station there ya know) about 2004 and whatever of it that whomever (StarMetal???) obtained was sold off for about 50 cents a pound. Or was it less? IDK, it was before I came on here. Trying out my historian skillz now.

Since we try to keep things here like they are over on my first favorite Gunnie website, The High Road, I believe this and/or the other lube thread wound up getting a gentle warning last week, IIRC.

Our Three Amigos here don't care what that "Navy Wax" is, they just want to either find a replacement that works as well, or get the analysis bankrolled and either price out the existing product or (gasp!) price out a production run of the stuff IF anyone is willing to produce it.

Me, I think that if 10,000 pounds of it surfaced in Nevada, regardless of whether it really was from the Navy or whatever, there's some manufacturer who could do it again...if it was ever taken out of production. NO apologies to fans of the old Alox whatever number that's discontinued. Never liked the stink of that stuff, but it sure worked in the old 50/50 formula in handguns under mere typical temperatures.

[btroj]

Gear, have you considered a mix of oils in the SL68? Maybe 1/2 K2 and half castor? I'm leaning towards a real low oil content with 50/50 castor and Ester Ac oil.

Castor is good at leaving a slightly gummy film, Ester tends towards being solventy. Can the two sort of equal out the others negative? I think castor is the best actual lube for our purposes, it just needs to be kept under control.

I may may need to whip something up this weekend. If I do, I will let you know how it feels once done.

[geargnasher]

Pete has me thinking very much along those lines. I think a little K2 would be fine. In fact, SL-68.3 contains 180 microwax, Ivory, SAE 140 mineral oil, together with an equal small portion of castor and Maxima K2. The tiny bit of K2 ester made a noticeable change to the film and smear of the lube. So far Pete, Bruce, Bjorn, and I all have some but none of us have shot it yet.

Gear

[btroj]

Sounds good. Is there a threshold for oils?

I wonder if finding a lower limit for oils in the winter is a good idea. If it has just enough to get by in winter it might just be able to handle the summer heat. Seems that oils are needed, especially the Ester type oil, in winter but can be the issue in the summer.

[geargnasher]

Summer or winter, experience says castor, ester, and PAG oils must be less than two tablespoons per pound.

The exception is TnT.

I still don't know how the beeswax/PAO oil lubes manage to work, in any other formula PAOs are way too slick in such quantity. Just compare a lithi-bee with synthetic PAO grease to Speed Green and see the difference in how they shoot.

Gear

[btroj]

But how much less? Will 1 tablespoon per pound cut it? How dry have you gone to get it to work in the summer?
I guess I'm just looking at defining, or finding, the outer limits so we have some general boumdaries to work within.

Is that a legitimate pursuit or just an attemp to catch wild geese?

[geargnasher]

The "old" NRA formula had no fancy lube oils in it and it will handle any velocity I've ever demanded of it, even with modern Vaseline, so I don't know about limits or wild goose chasing. I will say that soap-based, microwax lubes made without any castor do give a lot more antimony wash above 2400 fps than with castor. Beeswax/soap lubes don't have that problem. I think that's because beeswax is better than the highly-refined petroleum microwax as a high-speed film lubricant.

Beeswax is loaded with various mono and complex esters. So yes, something is needed to provide film strength at extremely high velocity, how you get it in the lube isn't that important.

Gear

[Eutectic]

The "old" NRA formula had no fancy lube oils in it and it will handle any velocity I've ever demanded of it, even with modern Vaseline, so I don't know about limits or wild goose chasing.
Gear

I am famous for wild goose chasing! I can't get out of my head what works the best in high speed, heavily loaded machinery may not be a happy camper in our boolit lube!

The NRA lube (older non-Alox) is a good one with NOTHING high tech in it! 357maximum modified it with about 5% Ivory and it became better yet. A little bit of Castor Oil or Jojoba Oil (2% max.) gives it more 'top end' for those antimony wash streaks. It's a contender for what works at -20° below zero which is monumental! It or a hi-soap lube will be champion of the arctic is my prediction!

Oil....... If a lube 'shoots' oily it shoots you in the foot! I have had more failures with too much or too good an oil than any other failure.
Sometimes polybutene helps control "oily". There is some reason my "Polybutene Felix" is one of only two lubes that passed a saturated -14°F below zero test! I plan to change this record come January!

So think simple and think in small % amounts for additions for a specific thing... (like antimony wash.)

Beeswax drives me nuts! I'm not sure we can take it all out...

I look for some Chevron "Clarity" White Oil in Iso 500 grade (little thicker than 140 gear wgt.) It is pure mineral oil.... nothing else. I've seen old 'constipated' guys many years ago put it in their Thermos cup right from a bleeder valve and drink it.
Chevron doesn't make this 'vis' anymore. I think I saw it in 35# (5 gal.) pails before I retired? A product data sheet is attached (from 1996)

I'm testing Gear's SL68.3 this morning. My gut says it may be 'oily' but the polybutene may calm it down. Feels good: but that's tricked me before. Only 20°F this morning so I should just tend to the banana trees but I'm anxious to shoot it.

Eutectic

[Eutectic]

I'm testing Gear's SL68.3 this morning. My gut says it may be 'oily' but the polybutene may calm it down. Feels good: but that's tricked me before. Only 20°F this morning so I should just tend to the banana trees but I'm anxious to shoot it.

Eutectic

Had time for one fully saturated gun and ammo test group. 19°F and spitting snow.
Nice round 3/4" group at 85 yards .... Passed Cold start in it. Passed

Remington Model 700 Classic .250-3000. LC 82 re-formed machine gun brass with tighter neck clearance. Fed 210 89gr Gascheck 11bhn air cooled 2050 fps 147,600 RPM..... Oopps! Sorry I regress!

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

So far so good then, we'll see if it falls apart as the mercury begins to rattle around in the thermometer bulb. I'm kinda on the edge of my seat with this one, it was what I had in mind to try if either SM or SL-68 had issues in the cold.

Is it interesting to find a little bit of success in sub-zero weather using lubes that contain no beeswax?

Gear

[Grump]

So please remind me which of these need heat to go through a Star sizer and how hot???

Starmetal lube (Extreme but repeatable only until the "Navy Wax" runs out)

Tn'T (Extreme but only below 30,000 PSI loads--that comment from Gear about a filler--does that mean using filler somehow scrubs the hard fouling or keeps it from getting deposited in the first place, whatever?)... Was it Tn'T and SL-63 series that both had the fouling problem?

Satan's Lube +1, 6661 or 666.1, from 357 Maximum, passed hot weather and could be Extreme if it passes the below zero F tests...

SL-68, in the same final testing status as Satan's +1...

Felix Lube, Extreme only in the heat, failed the below zero tests (how badly, I don't remember). Is Felix Lube (aka FWFL, IIRC) that burgundy colored stuff?

Is the SL-68 series really close to the (latest, the initials get confusing for me) MML lube + a little Ivory? I seem to remember MML being too gooey and giving purge flyers in the heat, which is a deal-breaker for me. Eutectic probably don't care what a lube does above 80 F, I imagine.

Now if the first winner(s) of the Extreme Quest all require heat to put through a lubri-sizer, then I guess I could live with that. Main reason I have been resisting installing a heater or doing more than the lamp trick is because 10-15 years ago when I was strapped for time and bought "hard cast" bullets from *other than* Oregon Trail, they all used hard crayon lube (two or three different small mfgrs) and leaded terribly AND had mediocre accuracy.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

It was pointed out to me that MML uses lithium grease, I don't think the SL-68 does, but I might be mistaken, sure wouldn't be the first time.

[btroj]

No lithium grease in SL 68. I can guarantee that.

[runfiverun]

I like lithium grease in many ways and still use it.
Airc castor definitely needs something to keep under control from building up.

i have been recalling some old peg and meg waxes they come in different chain lengths but their
melt temps were a bit lower they however might take the heat we used them as binding agents when making electro-ceramic powders at 300-f.

[Dan4570]

I have been working on it for some time, I live in Montana so I started my lube testing here. I got other shooters, in other shooting enviroments to test my lubes. One guy in the Mohave Desert. It compaired according to him to be at least as good as DGL, & Better than SPG. He only has my gun grease, and bullet lube. My patch lube changes the game. One of my shooting budies has been using all 3 and he runds 20-30 shot strings with an original Trapdoor, 30:1 lead, Kik Black Powder and my lubes. If he pre-swabs he has reported no noticeable loss of accuracy, No need for a fouling shot, reduced leading and cleans up with about 5-8 patches and a little water.
Is that what your looking for? Just guessing since your paper patch'n them.

[Grump]

I have been working on it for some time,

[snipping black powder cartridge rifle stuff]

If he pre-swabs he has reported no noticeable loss of accuracy, No need for a fouling shot, reduced leading and cleans up with about 5-8 patches and a little water.
Is that what your looking for? Just guessing since your paper patch'n them.

?????

I don't remember any discussion of paper patching in this thread. This one is the Extreme Lube search for otherwise barenekkid lead boolits. Several successes I guess with pistol cartridges but higher velocity and higher pressure in rifles, searching for no first-round flyers and repeatable cold dirty bore performance AND keeping strings of up to 10 shots as groups instead of deteriorating into patterns is why the Quest continues here.

I'm too clumsy and impatient to do paper patches other than as an experiment. For both BP or nitrated fuel powders.

I have some high hopes for the SL-68 series. If it pukes below 25° F that would still do for me. If it pukes below 35° F I might lose patience and just use FWFL, since heat is my biggest challenge. But I'm sure I would try to buy the stuff instead of cooking my own.