"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,

Stihl chain and bar is what I'm using. The summer grade with Iso 220 base oil.

The 112gr HP chronographs 1790fps at 8 feet. I shoot the solid version (116.5grs) right at 1700fps.

So they are peppy hunting type .32-20 loads that the old Savage Model 23 just loves.

Eutectic

Thank you on both accounts! What's the twist and powder charge?

MJ

P.S. I'm going to make another batch of my "extremely" soapy lube and substitute the Stihl for Jojoba. Can't pull the trigger on the BW microwaxes yet... guess I've got too much beeswax in stock.

[geargnasher]

I have some magnesium stearate, I think, tucked away somewhere. My experience was not satisfactory using it because it created combinations which dropped out of the "lube" as the lube aged on the stove. For example, it took the genuine alox component out of the standard NRA 50-50 tamarack brand. Nothing like tar being glued to the bottom of a stainless steel mixing pot. And, I mean TAR that took trichloro chemicals to clean the pot. I would hate to have that in a gun barrel. ... felix

Polybutene Felix is looking dang good! ... felix

There you go, Eutectic, if that testimony won't break you from sucking eggs, I don't know what will!

Re: Mikey, we think it's polybutene. Old technology.

Re: Don, we covered that a few pages back, I found several "retail" sources.

Re: Felix, I suspect that if the Mg stearate is melted into the oils and gels upon cooling from high temperatures (above poof-point of beeswax), it will form a stable gel upon cooling similar to the other greases. If incorporated into a tri-stearate formula of the appropriate proportions, it should be "invisible" save for making the finished grease work-stable.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Friday I'm going to stop by the nursery that carries Stihl products and if the only way to purchase Stihl "Bar & Chain Lubricant" (IIRC, the "summer weight" version) is by the gallon, would it make sense to melt Ivory directly into it instead of USP mineral oil?

MJ

[Eutectic]

would it make sense to melt Ivory directly into it instead of USP mineral oil?

MJ

My PBF formulation has no straight mineral oil. I start by polymerizing the Castor Oil using the Stihl Oil (which does have a naphthenic mineral oil base) Then I mix in the Ivory and continue heat until the Ivory is dissolved completely. Beeswax last with heat now down around 210F. No lanolin either; the polybutene in the Stihl oil replaces it well in my opinion.

My Savage .32-20 has a 1 in 20" twist.

Eutectic

[felix]

It looks like everybody and his uncle makes a polybutene something. The good news is that the cosmetic folks are into it as well, meaning the stuff is not toxic. The only worry we would have is a consistent source, or a consistent mixture. But that is no different than what we have now anyway. Check out the chain saw formulas. It seems that is the formulas we want because of the high percentages of the good stuff. Using the net, chain saw formulas I have seen typically have 30-50 percent, as compared to 1-5 percent in cosmetics. ... felix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutene

[geargnasher]

Half a percent of pure polybutene (Paratac) will make just about any oil into a stringy mess like spiderwebs. It's good stuff.

Anybody know of a PAO bar oil?

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

My PBF formulation has no straight mineral oil. I start by polymerizing the Castor Oil using the Stihl Oil (which does have a naphthenic mineral oil base) Then I mix in the Ivory and continue heat until the Ivory is dissolved completely. Beeswax last with heat now down around 210F. No lanolin either; the polybutene in the Stihl oil replaces it well in my opinion.

My Savage .32-20 has a 1 in 20" twist.

Eutectic

Thanks, that sounds easy enough but why incorporate the castor oil? Isn't the BarNchain oil slick enough on its own? I'm thinking for the more "normal" 1:10"-1:12" 30 calibers (my '06 boolits are spinning over twice the RPM of your 32-20 boolits) it would be better to leave out the castor oil.

MJ

[felix]

Maybe so, but the castor oil guarantees the slickies towards the muzzle, especially at 40 degrees and below. The polybutene is the spreader-sticker in lieu of the lanolin and it is appearing to remain calm throughout the ambient temperature extremes. Lanolin hates cold weather (that is why the sheep love it), and as such it should be replaced in our future lubes. We might consider extending the play time with the various chain saw lubes instead, to supply the basis oil (whatever it actually is) with the polybutene pre-mixed in. There is a mix that will make the 06 act like the 32-20, guaranteed. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Felix,

Do you think it would matter if the castor oil is subsequently added to an already cooked batch of lube vs. polymerized with the barNchain oil?

I would like to approach it in this manner because most of my shooting is done while ambient is above 40F; and, I would like to see if the addition of a small amount of castor oil makes a difference in group size when ambient drops into the 40's or below.

MJ

P.S. How do we even know that the castor oil and the B&C oil form a polymer in the first place simply by heating them together?

[felix]

No, Pat, you cannot break the rules. Castor oil needs to be captured in advance, otherwise it acts like a thief during the night when you least expect it. Best to make two different lubes, one with, and another without it. How much to add when and where is up to Eutectic and Gear because I have no experience with the polymer in question. If the base oil in the chainsaw lube is not a petro oil, then you might get away without polymerizing the castor oil, hoping for an encapsulation by the polybutene chain instead. Besides, heat is required anyway to make the soap work as intended, so you might as well go for broke. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

Here's the dope on Stihl B&C oil from the MSDS:

Naphthenic Petroleum Oil: 93-99%
Petroleum Product Additive: 1-7%

So, is the polybutene component the 1-7% portion? If so, this particular product doesn't sound like a major source of polybutene.

MJ (not Pat) but thanks just the same for the answer to my question, Poindexter.

[357maximum]

Re: Mike, we think it's polybutene. Old technology.

Gear

Thanks...Just going through some old notes to see how some of my successes/failures coincided with the stuff yall are doing. Some of your terminology and such simply makes my head hurt BTW. I did my playing at a more leisurely and less thourough pace. I added things till it worked and then subbtracted things that I did not think contributed to the success. One of my better "simple" lubes was basically Ultra Slick + lithi-bee, and I was thinking it might be polybutene by some of your guys' assessments and playing. ...at any rate...thanks

[felix]

MJ, it's all about the degree of polymerization of whatever. This web source might give you a clue of what is discussed in this thread. Yeah, it's old technology, but what is "new" is coming up with strange concoctions of components to make a product that does something mo'betta' or different by accident (such as Post-Um stickyback pads). ... felix

http://www.soltexinc.com/app-engine-...motor-oils.cfm

[runfiverun]

just about anything petro with long strands of sticky in it i'd bet is polybutene.
this stuff has been around for a long time so it's been engineered to death.
and once something becomes mainstream it has known property's so get's called on for everything from oil additives to the chain lube stuff.

don.
the 1-7% is a cya statement, some or all of it is the poly additive.
they are just getting oil to stick to a chain.
the summer version probably has some parrafin added in [or if the base comes from the quaker state it has some parrafin]
if the base comes from oklahoma it has less parrafin [and more para-tack]
different places have different oil grades and different things in the oil.
bar oil is not part of the refining process it's a modified product sold for oiling a chain.
i use used motor oil and lucas oil additive to make it when i need it.
and sometimes forget to add the lucas.

[geargnasher]

The polybutene does several things for lube as far as I can tell. While it isn't technically an EP additive in oils, it does seem to have the effect, however the mechanism, of making an oil have a higher film strength on my wear tester. Not the only game in town, naturally-occurring long-chain hydrocarbons in the 22+ molecule class tend to accomplish the same thing, but also become very rigid at low temps. Polybutene also gets sluggish when cold, but the treatment level is so low that it has much less negative effect. Consider Polybutene to be like stretchy bonding agent that holds all the other molecules together in the lube.

Gear

[357maximum]

What cheap over the counter product will have the most amount of polybutene in it?

The ultra slick+ lithi-bee warrants more attention from me now that I have sat down and compared all the targets from my whelen at 2700fps, but I am still a "frugal" feller and that little bottle of ultra slick is like $8. I still have my original batch of lithibee+ultra slick to play/compare with too. I used ultra-slick as I had a bottle of it left over from a briggs overhaul/rebuild...and well it just seemed like a good additive back when I was cooking lubes all the time. A few of my targets were shot at 5 to 19 degrees and showed no issues with accuracy...so I want to do a bit more playing with the known good load in my whelen before winter leaves us.

[runfiverun]

gear posted a bird repellant that comes in a tube like caulking but i'll be damned if i can find a link.
it was on page 68 or somewhere around there.
i looked through 10 pages seeing if i could find it.
anyway it's mostly polybutene and is about 6 bucks a tube.

[utk]

gear posted a bird repellant that comes in a tube like caulking but i'll be damned if i can find a link.
it was on page 68 or somewhere around there.
i looked through 10 pages seeing if i could find it.
anyway it's mostly polybutene and is about 6 bucks a tube.

Was it this product?

http://www.bird-x.com/bird-proof-gel...php?page_id=66

And a MSDS:

http://www.bird-x.com/filebin/pdf/in...f-Gel-MSDS.pdf

[357maximum]

post #1333, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Now I just have to find out where to buy Bird Proof brand repellent....only bird repellent I have ever used was dogs, cats, and 12gauges.

[btroj]

I bought some at e local Ace hardware. It was by the rat poison, mouse traps, and such. Almost missed it up on the top shelf.