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Thread: "Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

  1. #3021
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    look at Jon's 68.1 thread.
    so far that's the latest published recipe. [here]
    Run, if that's a link, it's not working - at least on my machine. Page and post number por favor? After 3.5 years of questing, it shouldn't be something we need to go spelunking for.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  2. #3022
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    it ain't a link.
    Jons thread should be titled Gearknashers 68.1 lube recipe or sumthin along those lines.
    here meant here on this site.

  3. #3023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Run, if that's a link, it's not working - at least on my machine. Page and post number por favor? After 3.5 years of questing, it shouldn't be something we need to go spelunking for.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3031465
    NRA Endowment Member

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  4. #3024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Page and post number por favor? After 3.5 years of questing, it shouldn't be something we need to go spelunking for.
    Is that so?

    Gear

  5. #3025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    ...
    Let's not have a repeat of Arthur Dent's adventure
    ...
    Arthur Dent is dead ...and all the other Arthur Dents in all the different dimensions are dead too.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  6. #3026
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Is that so?

    Gear
    Bear with us Obi Wan and don't beat us too hard with your long-chain molecules. As with beeswax at high temperature, some of our brains scorch when the number of targets to track exceeds a certain number.

    I went through the SL68 thread in its entirety last night and this morning. Synopsis as I grok it: The beeswax scorch issue has been solved, but it may not be a desirable additive in a truly Extreme system. The SL68.1 version is still classified among the lab coat brigade leading the charge and still undergoing review.

    That about the size of it?
    Last edited by Bigslug; 08-23-2015 at 02:32 PM.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  7. #3027
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    Bigslug,
    I may not be the one you want a response from...
    But, I don't think that is the case. That was Grump's conclusion at one point from his searching and reading. I've clarified my reasons for sticking with SL68B in my thread and I'm sure you've read it. Others have chosen to take a version of a SL (soap lube) and made it there own, mostly I suspect it having to do with what is readily available to them, or there own thoughts on what a wide-range lube should have. Really, the basic formula is about: 1/3 Micro-wax, 1/3 Ivory, 1/3 Vaseline, "some" Mineral oil as a softener and a little castor oil as the "slick" agent. As to the "lab coat brigade"(God, I hope that's not derogatory), I suspect the quest continues.
    Jon
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  8. #3028
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    "Lab Coat Brigade" - not intended as derogatory at all. Much like the military officer's handgun, binoculars, and clip board, the lab coat is a badge of office among the hard research crowd. Now, if I had mentioned beanies with propellers on top, or referred to "propellerheads", THAT would be derogatory, although my inner 6-year old thinks it would make for a way cooler uniform.

    Have we settled on a source or sources for micro-waxes, and have we determined if multiple grades of micro-wax are necessary in the lube or if one will suffice? The thought process being that simpler is better if it can be achieved.

    I hate to seem a scab-ripper or nagging freeloader, but it seems you've gotten near the point where the heavy cerebral lifting has been done, and that the best way to drive it home may be to increase the size of the pool of folks that are tinkering - and indeed making mistakes - with tweaks to the basic concept. Shakespeare has written all but the last paragraph of the sonnet - we monkeys in the room full of typewriters may be able to finish it off.
    WWJMBD?

    In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.

  9. #3029
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    source or sources for micro-waxes
    I don't think it matters.

    multiple grades of micro-wax are necessary in the lube or if one will suffice?
    Multiple necessary? ...While necessary is a strong word in this context, I'll say, I "think" so. There has been talk about the possible benefits of adding Paraffin as well, a high grade of paraffin, not Gulf wax. But I'll be sticking with SL68B.

    near the point where the heavy cerebral lifting has been done, and that the best way to drive it home may be to increase the size of the pool of folks that are tinkering
    I don't consider myself part of the Lab Coat Brigade. I jumped into this thinking SL68 was was the ticket ...and ended up with my own variant for previously stated reasons ...and consider myself one of the Shakespearean typewriter monkeys in your metaphor. So, If you want to join me, that'd be great.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  10. #3030
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    AFAIC, the "Lab Coat Brigade" is an honorific reference to those who are doing the actual mixology and shoot-ology, referred to by the good Bigslug as having done the heavy lifting in this Quest.

    Like another, I have taken to the lazy vulture circling and waiting for a morsel to pounce upon in recent months. I care not to take the effort to sort out the whys and various frictions amongst whomever that led to my most respected sources wandering off elsewhere with their posts, but an honest report must include that at least one of the players became a bit burned out and has spent much more of his recent time in family activities. Nothing wrong with that.

    What I have gleaned is that adequate performance has been obtained with a single microwax (180 or 185F melt point or thereabouts) in the stead of the N-wax, but at least one of our guys continues to wonder if a blend of two or three others of nearby melt points might be better. I suspect that is seeking a mere incremental improvement.

    Before last season's cold weather eased up, I had at least one report that basic SL-68 had handily passed all cold testing. I don't recall if that went below -10 F or so, but that's extreme enough in that direction for me.

    I sought confirmation of the hot-weather testing ABOVE 100 F and had at least one report that there were no purge flyers, melt stability was good, and everyone using it was happy. Then someone started adding melted milk jug plastic...to some mix of some sort...

    The Quest is fascinating and my conclusion is that original SL-68 does the job and the continued "tweak" experiments are driven more by "what if" curiosity than a need to correct performance deficiencies. And I can't even remember what the SL68.1 variant was. My understanding is that the lack of further sub-variant reporting here AND elsewhere is because none of them have brought any real improvement, and one or more were not as good as the basic formula noted above.

    "SL" could also refer to "Satan's Lube" in reference to the 6-6-6 ounce ratios of one size of the formula, disregarding the addition of something as "+1" to the mix. That's the castor oil and/or mineral oil in much smaller amount(s)--and precisely the final detail I'm a bit nervous about if I decide to cook up my own someday. But I might be overcomplicating it a bit, since those two components appear to work well within a range of "salt according to taste" tolerances. I want mine to flow through the sizer at 70 F and never melt up to at least 150 F in my ammo.

    So I don't check this thread all that often any more.

  11. #3031
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    Some of these "lab coats" should be the variety with extra long sleeves and lots of stylish buckles.

  12. #3032
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    The peanut gallery heard from. Heck, thay already wear bullfighter's "Suit of Lights."
    We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).

    Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.

    We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!

  13. #3033
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    AIRC it was the earlier SL series that had issues with the soap causing a coating in the barrel which led to some spectacular initial groups and then to vertical stringing.
    I believe it was the same initial flowing I was seeing when I done the torch tests of the ingredients.

    we started looking for ways to control the build-up, or take advantage of it being there [CORE condition] and make it a consistent condition.
    we found it better to eliminate the whole thing entirely, and started looking at the waxes again since we found that the amount of oils in the lube really needed is super minimal.
    and almost none is needed when a synthetic is used.
    as we started looking at oil/wax relationships their roles started to become more clear and we gravitated more and more towards a modified wax base rather than a modified oil base.

    those brutaalllly bashed hard wax 'shipping' lubes may become much more effective in the future, I got along with a slightly modified one for years.

  14. #3034
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    [snipped useful and informative histerical stuff]

    those brutaalllly bashed hard wax 'shipping' lubes may become much more effective in the future, I got along with a slightly modified one for years.
    Myeahhh...the ONLY hard commercial lube on boolits I bought instead of casting myself that EVER prevented leading was that blue-green stuff on the Oregon Trail/Laser-Cast ones. Can you dig, like 1350 fps out of a 6-inch .357 with 125-gr TC boolits??? I sure did. Only ones to lead less were not cast, the "Extreme" plated ones--the ONLY plated that were half-accurate (.38/.357 was all I tried) as compared to several _other_ brands of plated in a total of four diameters.

    Thus I'm back to casting my own. Until I got lazy and used some marginal .40s, my own cast boolits do better than anything except the Oregon Trails, and in some loads mine are still better.

  15. #3035
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    BTW, great to hear from you again, Gear! How's the Tribe?

  16. #3036
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    Lazer cast uses the same lube everybody else [commercial] does.
    it's just green instead of red, blue, or clear.
    it only comes in one formulation and your choice of three different dyes.

    the pushing them hard was/is the key to what you did working.
    there is a lube lesson in that.

  17. #3037
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    Lazer cast uses the same lube everybody else [commercial] does.
    it's just green instead of red, blue, or clear.
    it only comes in one formulation and your choice of three different dyes.

    the pushing them hard was/is the key to what you did working.
    there is a lube lesson in that.
    Come to think of it, I WAS running the 9mms between 1070 and 1170, the lightest .357s were about 1200 (fastest with a different powder were 1350+ depending on which barrel...), and IF I did .30 caliber 110-120s or so in the Carbine those were 1750-1850 or so... Didn't run the .380s until earlier this year and not enough down the pipe yet to really know how well the lube does in that short barrel, but they ARE accurate.

    OTBC is still the ONLY commercial boolit that temps me to not cast my own, though the "Extreme" plated ones have shown promise but plated are sorta sui generis.

  18. #3038
    Boolit Buddy Phlier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Here's the process.

    Tranny assembly gel in the pan starting to melt
    Attachment 63016

    Sliced Ivory bar in the melted gel/oils, about 220F and just starting to foam on the edges
    Attachment 63017

    Starting to foam fully now, note how the slices "melt" and dissolve into the oils as the water boils off
    Attachment 63018

    Suddenly, the foam all goes away as the last water is cooked off, leaving this clumpy mix. The stearate is partially dissolved, but NOT melted yet. The temperature is about 250F while the water is cooking off.
    Attachment 63019

    After turning up the heat, the mix begins to liquify, starting at the bottom and working up as the un-melted gelatinous goo floats on top. You can see where I pulled the spoon through the mix at the edge of the pot, the liquid is showing underneath the mat of jelly on top. Some of what is on the spoon is liquid and some if it hasn't melted yet.
    Attachment 63020

    NOW it's fully liquid, see what I've been talking about? The temperature is 460F. Respect this stuff, a speck of it getting on your skin will burn almost as badly as molten boolit alloy.
    Attachment 63021

    Here's a shot of the stuff in the pot, fully liquified. You can see the smoke it puts off. At this point I remove the pot from the heat and gently stir while the stuff cools and gels into a very thick, sodium grease.
    Attachment 63022

    Here it is at 400F after it starts to gel well and has been stirred and blended with the spoon. The grease itself becomes a lot thicker than that at room temperature.
    Attachment 63023

    Adding the chunk of beeswax at about 350F and letting the hot grease melt it in gradually with no additional heat. This batch was about 250F after the wax had been melted in. I reheated it to 275F to blend for a couple more minutes and then poured it into a pan to cool
    Attachment 63024

    Here's the finished mix at about 260F, this is about as liquid as it gets without scorching the wax. If a higher percentage of wax is used, the consistency is more thin and pourable, but that is exactly what I DON'T want it to do in the summertime, and if significantly more wax is added than this recipe calls for the final consistency is way too hard when cooled to flow in a sizer without heat.
    Attachment 63025


    A couple of notes here, I guess I can't call it "Smurf Lube" if made with the Dr. Tranny brand stuff, it's more green than blue like the first tub of this stuff I used (different brand, virtually identical product except for color). We'll have to figure out a new name. SL #61 might be a good one, it IS the 61st mix of heavy soap lube that I've recorded making. The other thing is this pot had never been used for lube before and the brown junk is old grease seeping from the pores of the aluminum. Not much of it got into the lube, I just wanted to note that it is NOT a product of any of the lube ingredients. Nothing turns brown at all if you do this right.

    I guess I should say that "this is your brain on Boolit Lube, any questions????"

    Gear
    Real shame those pictures are gone. Gear was making Smurf lube here, but the same basic process is used to make pretty much all soap lubes.

    Don't suppose the Powers That Be could go back through the archives and restore the pics from an old back up?

    Ah well... there's still some important temps listed, as well as a pretty good tutorial on making soap lubes.
    "Things sure are a lot more like the way they are now than they used to be." --Yogi Berra

  19. #3039
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    Sadly, when software is updated, some times unfixable glitches happen...one time we lost a bunch of images, and they are GONE for ever.

    I have some photos in my instructions.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...how-to-make-it
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  20. #3040
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    Jon, thank you!

    That is exactly the thread I've been trying to find. Very much appreciated.

    Edit: It looks like your pictures fell victim to a forum software upgrade, too, darn it.
    Last edited by Phlier; 02-06-2017 at 04:26 PM.
    "Things sure are a lot more like the way they are now than they used to be." --Yogi Berra

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