2 Swiss Vetterlis, 1 tight bore, need advice

[Wrax]

Hi there, I'm new to the forum and this is my first post here. I'm 25 years old, reloading for 1-2 years, I'm also found in BC Canada and have two Swiss Vetterli's.

I'm already set up and have been reloading for my 1871 Vetterli, it has a groove of .436 and lands of .415. I use a 310 grain, gas checked, hand cast wheel weight, water quenched bullet that measures .430. I lube them in a tin baking pan with a melted mix of beezwax, parrafin, and vasoline at pretty much 1:1:1, NO leading and I've put 800 or more rounds through it. My dies would only work with the .430. Started at 9 gr unique, worked up to 11 so far. 348 brass cut to about 1.65 give or take a few hundredths (shortest ones are 1.45, but I stopped using anything under 1.6) and the overall cartridge length is a 2.2 inches.
The gun was shortened at some point in its past and was also missing its front sight and the rear was broken, so I declared it worthless and it then became a project of no discrimination due to "original value". so I invested my efforts to bring value of function and beauty (don't kill me guys) back to it. I fabricated a tall aluminum front sight that slides in a dovetail style groove that was poorly cut in by a previous owner, got the rear flip up tab welded back together and fit in for function, removed the dried up rusty beaten up appeareance, rebluing the barrel and refinishing the dented and scratched up stock. It's absolutely a beautiful rifle, now every time I pull it out of my locker I get this weird tight feeling in my chest....Pride??
I've managed 1, 50 yard shot right in the bullseye but 25 yards is better. At 75 yards though, I can't even hit the paper. Not too sure whats going on there, I have some theories. I do know a tree branch about 400 yards off broke off once way behind the target and off to the side about 10 yards or so, so I don't think it went to shrapnel mid flight. Perhaps the brass is grabbing...? bullet may be too small...? fun to shoot, and a constant mental challenge to theorize and diagnose, I love it.

So my second Vetterli which I purchased a few weeks ago at a gun show for $200 in Chilliwack was kind of a thrill, I couldn't resist, I figured I'm already set up for it why not? I believe its the 1869 model, and is missing the breech cover and tab from both sides since it had little holes and a slot cut in the sides that appear to be pivot points, and I had to fabricate the little steel bolt stopper that slips in above and behind the bolt. No, this time I did not affect its appearance since it is still full length and is in relatively nice condition, (aside from the bolt modification because they wouldn't swap).
Well I slugged it at home, and the groove measures .425 and lands of .410. It's considerably tighter, and I cant chamber a round. I tried both fired and unfired empty brass, and that seems to fit fine, but with a bullet in the brass I can't close the bolt. Its close, but another 3/16 of an inch to go. Also its tough to pull the bullet back out again. It feels like the bullet is sticking, and I need to either size it down, or cast a new bullet. I guess I could just shorten the round and force it out the barrel, but I'm far from an expert on things like that and it seems like not such a great idea (pressures and leading). Just a reasonably cautious sensible lunatic with a few common cents.

My questions would be , if I simply get a new bullet cast, will my dies likely still work to seat and crimp? or will I have to get custom ones cut from lee? And what would be the best diameter to cast, or size down to if need be? My thought process brings me to about .421 so there's no pressure issues, and because of obturation most of that lead would fill the groove anyways.
RCBS suggested a .427 sizer die, Lee mentioned going .425, but also said that you need some room for the lead to obturate and fill the grooves. I already shoot about .006 undersize in one Vetterli and it seems fine, so by my reasoning .421 should work fine.
Either way I've been uncertain as to which way to go, and have looked around a bit at the options for dies, and molds. I have not settled on a bullet yet, I would prefer one that closely resembles the one I shoot like the 421-390-GC, maybe one with a flatter nose.

I know this is just another Vetterli thread amongst the many which were invaluable for everything so far, but many of my questions remain unanswered and I haven't found alot of info on the Vetterlis with a bore this tight, I know there was two chamber sizes, but most people online describe they're 1869's and loose bore, up to .438 I've read. Also, sorry for the book, first post and all, I thought history was important and you would need all the facts. I'll try and get some pics of my setup soon. Any advice is immensely appreciated and you are awesome!

[dubber123]

I won't claim to have read every single word of your post, but enough to offer this: You need 2 things, a bigger mold for the loose Vetterli, and a smaller size die for the second. Barring a bent barrel, or a really poorly cut crown, it should shoot really well much farther than 25 yards. You may need 2 different expander buttons in your dies to deal with the 2 different diameter boolits. Have fun!

[Oldeyes]

One of my Vetts has a groove diameter of .438" and will do consistent 3" five shot groups at 100 yards with .430 boolits. Those big tall lands displace a lot of lead! You do not mention if you are shooting gas checked boolits, they do help accuracy in oversized bores by protecting that critical base from gas cutting so the projectile leaves the muzzle more consistantly. What is your load, smokeless or black?
As to your other Vett, it would probably help to size the boolits smaller, your other choice is to try your shorter brass with the boolit seated a little deeper so it will chamber. Keep your loads mild! The chamber "neck" is only a long funnel from the shoulder into the bore and you can alter brass length to fit if you are using the rifle as a single shot and not feeding thru the mag.
BTW, I do shoot .430" thru annother Vett with a .424 barrel by the above method. Ihave finally found a 424 sizer die so I will try that on the next go-round to compare accuracy.

[mtnman31]

Welcome to the forum.

I lucked into the mold pictured in this old post.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=51023
I have since cleaned up the mold, put on a new sprue plate and cut some threads for handle screws. I use the bullets as cast (.420-.421) with my Vetterli that has .419 grooves. I use a soft mix of stick on wheel weight lead and shoot with black powder. I use the bullets as cast and the lube is a homemade version of Emmerts. I reload with the Lee die set and don't have any problems. I haven't done any real accuracy tests but it hits where I aim and is fun. The mold is an odd ball and obviously not something you're going to find on eBay or the Swappin' Sellin' section. I'd recommend you get a custom mold made by Mountain Molds, then you know it would be a perfect fit. To make sure your dies work, you may want to have a custom expander made. That would open up your neck to the proper diameter for the bullet without crushing it or leaving excessive slop.

[Chicken Thief]

First of the barrel is rifled for pure lead.
Cast that and you will find shooting the beast way different.

The thing with Vetterli's is that they have no throat. The chamber just fades/cones directly into the rifling.
348 brass is thick walled and will allow a smaller boolit in same chamber as to reformed 8x50R Lebel brass.

My M78 has a "big" chamber and uses 348 brass whereas my M69 is tight and can only use 8x50R brass for the same length and boolit.

Here's my M79, 5 shots at 50m



I use this 350gr boolit (from Ranchdog) cast of pure lead over 55gr Swiss #4 BP and can shoot 24 shots as fast as i can reload twice (11+1) and pull the trigger, and that without hard fouling.

[Wrax]

BTW, I do shoot .430" thru annother Vett with a .424 barrel by the above method. Ihave finally found a 424 sizer die so I will try that on the next go-round to compare accuracy.

This .424 sizer die, is it the lee style that will work with just the regular press? Where did you get it? I don't have a lubrisiser, and I don't want to have to get the setup, I don't reload enough ammo yet to make it worthwhile, heck I'm cleaning my brass with fine steel wool on a copper wire brush and a drill, sure makes em purty, and honestly I don't mind. It's all 4'th generation brass now.

I've considered lately maybe drilling out the base of my bullets a bit and holding off on the gas check, to help it obturate a bit more like the original, perhaps that would help fill the grooves. I have to force the bullet through the seating/crimping die which sizes it down from cast to .430, otherwise when I try to crimp it, sometimes the press jams and the bullet gets pulled out. I got my dies from CH4D. I like the dies, but they wont allow a bigger bullet seated and crimped to 2.2.

[Oldeyes]

My sizer die is a Lyman for the Lubrisizer, I found it on ebay. Lots of good stuff shows up on ebay but it takes endless patience to find what you need when it is not being bid beyond what it's worth....
It sounds like a lubrisizer may be in your future, it would certainly help with your reloading dies issues. Even if you could use fatter boolits in your seating die you might have problems chambering the round.

[Wrax]

K well. I bought a. 427 lee sizer die....once that arrives ill give those a whirl and see if they chamber. Ill look into some molds some more. Also bought lees ingot mold so i can get rid of the tin cup ingots and actually know what i have in weight. I keep trying to find softer lead, but its not so easy to come by. I hate buying lead when my buddies atthe tire shops give me buckets for nothing. Since lead tire weight have been abolished, its time stock up before theyre all gone. Itried to upload some pics but the uploader is acting funny. Ill try again in a few days.