Remington 1911 R1 carry condition

[Judan_454]

Whats the safest way to carry a 1911 style gun Condition 1,2 or 3. I heard that the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked. Im use to carrying revolvers, but new too the 1911 even though its been around for a 100 years I guess im slow at adapting to new technology. LOL

[runfiverun]

cocked and locked.
the thing has what? 15-20 safetys.

[bob208]

cocked and locked. my holster also has a thumb break strap that goes under the hammer for an added safety. in fact you can not use the strap with out it being cocked and locked.

[44MAG#1]

Cocked and Locked.

[JohnnyFlake]

I, as well as most others posting here, know that it feels uneasy to carry "Cocked & Locked" when you first start doing it, but soon after it will be just an everyday event, you won't even think about it.

[lbaize3]

My dad taught me to carry "cocked and locked". He was a city policeman with 33 years of experience. He went to work as a bailiff in a district court for another 12 years before he finally retired. I was able to convince my boat officer to allow me to carry cocked and locked while in Vietnam. As a deputy sheriff I carried cocked and locked.

My thumb still searches for the safety as I draw an XD or Glock, today. Have to admit I prefer the 1911 over all other pistols.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I carry the 1911 on and off duty cocked and locked, I am a 30 year veteran peace officer. If you have an extended safety I'd be sure to use a high quality holster with it.

[TXGunNut]

My 1911's are social equipment and one old favorite is my retired duty gun with over 20 years of service. Bottom line it's a fighting gun and the condition that allows it to get into the fight quickest is cocked & locked. As mentioned above the holster is very important, especially with extended or ambi safeties. It must be very secure and should not allow the thumb safety to be pushed off. We had a chief once that didn't like cocked & locked. The 1911 and Hi-Power were very popular duty guns during his short tenure.
Some folks are uneasy about cocked & locked but hardly anyone sees my 1911 anymore so I don't worry about it...come to think of it, didn't bother me much when I carried it in uniform.

[Judan_454]

Thanks for all the great information guys. It nice to get all that information from law enforcement people,if anyone understands carrying a 1911 it be the law enforcement people that carry the gun a daily basis.

[pietro]

FYI

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol.

They are:

[CONDITIONS OF READINESS

Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The mode of readiness preferred by experts is Condition One.
Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety.
Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don’t understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions.
When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off.
There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design.
In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand.
A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb.
In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Condition Three adds a degree of “insurance” against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target.
This draw is usually called “the Israeli draw” since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.

Using the “half-cock” as a safety:

The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a “fail-safe” and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it “half cocks” and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn’t use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with “Series 80″ type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.


.

[Matthew 25]

Condition 1 for me too. I felt a little weird about it at first, then I wore it cocked and locked and totally empty and tried to get the hammer to drop. No way.

[Buddy]

The 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked.

[35remington]

A couple of comments:

First, an impact on the hammer when the hammer is down won't fire a 1911, as the firing pin is shorter than the channel in the slide and the rear of the firing pin is flush with the surface of the firing pin stop. It is flush with the stop because the hammer holds it there when it is in the "at rest" position.

The usual way it can fire is if the firing pin is struck a full blow from the hammer starting from the cocked condition. Only then does the firing pin project far enough beyond the firing pin stop. The hammer will impart sufficient momentum to overcome the firing pin's spring resistance and allow the firing pin to gain enough speed to project beyond the breechface sufficient to fire the cartridge.

The other way it supposedly can fire, lacking a firing pin block and being of original 1911 or 1911A1 configuration is when it is dropped from sufficient height that the inertia gained from the fall will allow the firing pin to project with enough force to fire the round.....and of course the pistol has to land on its muzzle to do so.

How far it must drop to fire the cartridge is a matter of some debate. Some sources have claimed it is in excess of eight feet, which of course is much further than the average 1911 gets dropped. Instead of a firing pin block, some manufacturers avoid the issue by using a lightweight firing pin.

Ever seen an original hammer from the 1911 and 1911A1? It is relieved on the sides and has a big knob on the end of the hammer to facilitate gripping the hammer so it might be lowered safely on a round in the chamber. Properly done, the hammer was "pinched" between thumb and forefinger to facilitate lowering the hammer safely. The fingers fit into the relived part of the hammer on either side of the knob, giving a secure grip. Recent 1911 hammer design does not allow the sure grip on the hammer as in days of old.

Point being, Condition Two was seen as an alternative to "cocked and locked" because the design was set up to make such a thing possible with a reasonable assurance the hammer wouldn't slip when lowering it. Whether this is safer than "cocked and locked" is of course debatable, and the gun must be thumb cocked to ready it, which is of course undesirable in terms of speed.

But make no mistake......the 1911 and its early variants was set up to have the hammer lowered on the round in the chamber due to the hammer configuration.

The safest way to carry a 1911 is with the chamber empty. But that would make it too hard to employ quickly in most user's opinions.

[35remington]

Take a look at a 1911A1's hammer here:

http://coolgunsite.com/images/1911/1...t/1943Co14.jpg

[EMC45]

Condition 1.....Cocked and locked.

[dla]

The most dangerous thing you can do is start fiddling with trying to cock/decock a hammer. Carry C&L.

[Dan Cash]

35 Remington,
"But make no mistake......the 1911 and its early variants was set up to have the hammer lowered on the round in the chamber due to the hammer configuration. "

Tyou are most correct. However, the Army changed its mind early in the fielding of the 1911. I believe, as a result of troop user trials in 1912 or 13, cavalry soldiers (11th Cav?) were shooting their horses in the process of lowering the hammer. A cavalry horse being more valualbe than a trooper, it was declared cocked and locked for the carry method. I regret that I can not cite the source for this statement as it has been many years since I read it. It was in some kind of two volume short course for new officers placed on active duty which I found in the Armor School Library at Ft. Knox KY back in the late 70s.

[azrednek]

I'm pretty sure it was Cooper, if not please correct me. I'm paraphrasing from memory."If you're uncomfortable carrying cocked and locked, carry a revolver. One must be 100% confident, comfortable and secure." If anybody knows the exact quote please chime in.

[MtGun44]

Condition one. When home, Leave the gun loaded and in the holster, remove as a unit and put in
the safe. Removing and unloading 1000 times increases the chance of a brain fart
and a loud noise. Leave it in the holster ald it is 100% safe. Put holster and gun on belt
and leave. Everytime you provide access to the trigger or fiddle with safety and slide, you
dramatically increase chance for "1 in a million" human error.

Bill

[35remington]

Dan, what the Army declares its troopers can do has little to do with what the design features of the hammer facilitate. The hammer was shaped the way it was to allow lowering it with less chance of slipping from the grasp. People can still screw it up; the point was that those designing the pistol intended for it to be uncocked from time to time or they would not have shaped the hammer in the way they did.

Cars have pedals to make them go, too, and that gets abused all the time as well.

If you can run down the source that claimed the enlisted men were shooting their mounts right and left when trying to lower the hammer, I would be most fascinated to see it. If true, apparently it meant that they were also stupid enough to point their pistols directly at their horses while lowering the hammer. That seems a little much for guys that were not draftees.

I believe "cocked and locked" to be a civilian affectation. The Army didn't particularly care for it, I believe. I would also be most interested if anyone could come up with anything, in print, that said the Army officially designated the "cocked and locked" condition as the preferred carry method. I believe it would have been much more likely that the Army would have mandated loading from the magazine instead and carrying the pistol chamber empty.

Condition Three, in other words.