Winchester Model 1895, the lever gun that went to war

[wildwilly]

In all the years I've heard about the Russian government buying all those 1895's, no one has asked a simple question.....

Where are they now? Stashed in a warehouse? Used as fence pickets somewhere? Seems there'd be quite a market for them if located and imported.

Back in the mid 1960's Martin B Retting sold unaltered Russian 1895's through his store, Ye Old Western Hunter, in Culver City, CA, and through Hunters Lodge in Alexandria, VA. They were listed at about $65. At that time I was more interested in KAR Mausers and '03 Springfields.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Back in the mid 1960's Martin B Retting sold unaltered Russian 1895's through his store, Ye Old Western Hunter, in Culver City, CA, and through Hunters Lodge in Alexandria, VA. They were listed at about $65. At that time I was more interested in KAR Mausers and '03 Springfields.

D'Oh!!!!!

[smokeywolf]

I know where there are 2 model '95s, a 30-06 and a Russian in of course 7.62 x 54. Yep, you gotta download the 30-06 to original pressures.

smokeywolf

[floodgate]

An old boy (mid-80's) in the Upper Mojave Desert where I lived in the '60's had a pair of special-order 1895 Short Rifles (NOT carbines) in .30-'03, in which he used hellacious hand loads. He would bring them in in alternate years to the local gunsmith to have the dished-in bolt faces welded up and the firing pins re-fitted. Pretty sturdy rifles! - floodgate

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have hardly ever seen one in Australia. Saw a 303 version at a gunshow once, good barrel, good all round condition, $1500. Unfortunately I saw it at the end of the show and had already blown the budget. Shame I didn't see it at the start ofthe show. I always fancied one in 303 and one in 7.62x54 R.

[quasi]

A few thousand Russian 95's were imported to Canada in the late 60's to early 70's. They were very rough condition to say the least. Most were rebarelled with #4 Lee-enfield barrels, and are fairly common as 95's go in Canada.

[Multigunner]

A military musket version of the 1899 Savage lever action was ordered by a Canadian militia outfit. I've heard these were a private purchase by a wealthy benefactor.
Few of these muskets have shown up in collections. These were chambered for the .303 Savage cartridge.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you took into account all of the dust ups and revolutions in Mexico and all points south, the 1892 Winchester could no doubt claim war service as well.

[gnoahhh]

The Finnish Whites won the civil war, only to later fight two wars against the Soviet Union, and the Finns prevailed in both.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRcW82jJvyE

Actually, they (mostly) won the first one (known as The Winter War) in 1939-40, but lost the second one after which the Soviet Union took back a lot of territory. They were allied with the Germans ('your enemy is my enemy') during the second go-around, stood alone in the first one. The pluck of the Finnish defenders notwithstanding during the Winter War, the Soviets were their own worst enemy and lost because of poor leadership and ill-preparedness. Had the Russkies played their A Game, it would have undoubtedly turned out differently. In the second go-around they had learned a lot of lessons from fighting the Wehrmacht, and their artillery, armor, and leadership was way better than in the Winter War, not to mention the military aid they were getting from Britain and the U.S..

The full-stocked Savage muskets referred to above were for the Montreal Home Guard in 1915, and never went overseas. Nice original examples (of which there are very few) typically fetch $5-6000 these days when they turn up. Many were sporterized over the years.

[Multigunner]

I've seen a truckload of Winchester Model 95 muskets in a Russian police surveilance tape shown in a documentary on black market weapons.

During WW2 the Russians gave their Mod 95 muskets and carbines (possibly cutdown muskets) to partizans fighting behind the German lines.
propaganda films of these in use by partizans suggest the rifles were already pretty beat up. I doubt many were ever returned to the Soviet government by those who had carried them.

IIRC Winchester sold these rifles to the Russians during WW1 when they found they could not deliver on a previous contract for a bolt action rifle. The Russians were not that pleased with the trade off, as the lever action was far from peasant soldier proof, and required more attention to maintenance than it was likely to receive in the trenches.

Canada also issued a number of Model 94 rifles to the forerunners of the present Ranger organization.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I've seen a truckload of Winchester Model 95 muskets in a Russian police surveilance tape shown in a documentary on black market weapons.

During WW2 the Russians gave their Mod 95 muskets and carbines (possibly cutdown muskets) to partizans fighting behind the German lines.
propaganda films of these in use by partizans suggest the rifles were already pretty beat up. I doubt many were ever returned to the Soviet government by those who had carried them.

IIRC Winchester sold these rifles to the Russians during WW1 when they found they could not deliver on a previous contract for a bolt action rifle. The Russians were not that pleased with the trade off, as the lever action was far from peasant soldier proof, and required more attention to maintenance than it was likely to receive in the trenches.

Canada also issued a number of Model 94 rifles to the forerunners of the present Ranger organization.

The fact that the lever was almost impossible to operate discreetly from the shoulder in the prone position was the main feature Tgats prevented any real success as a military arm. It had to lifted up or removed from the shoulder, turned sideways and cycle.

As to the rifles used by communist partisans most would have been lost in the field when they were betrayed just before the invasion (the allies didn't want armed commies running around after the war.

[Multigunner]

As to the rifles used by communist partisans most would have been lost in the field when they were betrayed just before the invasion (the allies didn't want armed commies running around after the war.

That was true enough of the French communist resistence fighters, many of them were surrounded and butchered while awaiting arms drops that never came.
I don't know much about the Soviet and Eastern European communists, though Stalinists liked to betray Leninists and vice versa.

The awkwardness of working a lever action while in the prone position was a minus.
The 95 in carbine form was a favorite of British mounted officers, because in a pinch you could work the lever action with one hand while using the other hand to keep the mount under control.
Most British model 95s were probably privately purchased by the officers who chose to use them.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Stalin would have wanted to tidy up loose ends. He suspected everyone was as nasty a piece of work as he was.

The difficulties with operating the rifle from the prone position was why most levers failed to gain any real military contracts.

British officers were also expected to be a bit 'special' by their troops and they often dressed and armed themselves in a different and often theatrical manner and their troops loved them for it. The 95 would have been a good arm for a cavalry officer, being thin it would have been easy to carry in a scabbard and fired the service ammo. The one handed operation would have also been somewhat of an asset.

[frank505]

Let us not forget the battle of Plevna in 1877(?) where the Turks slaughtered the Russians with Peabody rifles and Winchester 1866's. Probably the first time a lever gun was used in a battle.

[wallenba]

I think the Turks kicked the Serbians pretty hard with those too, IIRC.

frank505, that must be what I'm thinking. (Read your post after making mine.)

[Pioneer2]

On the palace gates in Nepal you will see two large Swastikas as well...........Harold

[Four Fingers of Death]

On the palace gates in Nepal you will see two large Swastikas as well...........Harold

The indians and many other cultures use the swastika as a good luck/charm symbol.

[Gtek]

I have had one I scored years ago in AZ. Picked it and a mint AG-42 Swede, 1300 for both. Mine has a few miles and I am sure a million stories. I wish they could be downloaded. Early 1917 in 54r. None import marked, Russian accept stamp on right butt, blue 40%, bore- frosty is being nice. Has two repairs on top wood that looks Com repair, 3/16" or so small blocks of light wood 90 degrees to stop cracks/splits. Complete tear down when brought home, headspace was good. I have shot her some over the years, 5"ish @ 100. I will admit I have had Marlinitis for 30+ and the 95's are my hunting buddies. Gtek

[sundog]

45th Inf Div original shoulder sleeve insignia was a swastika.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45th_In...ited_States%29

scroll down and you'll see.

[Patrick56]

Interesting film--thanks for posting this.

Did anyone else see the black swastika on white field displayed by the White biplane? The symbol is quite ancient, but it is intriguing that the Whites adopted it as their anti-Communist emblem. This might explain its adoption by the Nazis, who were staunchly anti-Soviet/anti-Communist.

I wish I could shed tears for the Russian or Finn Communist troops that met the fate mentioned previously. Having lived as a child through the Cuba Missile Crisis in 1962--the Viet Nam War as a teen--and the Cold War as a young adult, I have zero sympathy for any adherent to that Godless, soulless, lifeless, and oppressive way of thinking. The Whites/Finns likiely concluded that by killing them off, it prevented having to fight those specific SOBs a second time. And there were subsequent fights with the Soviets/Reds.

Sorry, you got it wrong. The swastika was actually blue and was the symbol of the von Rosen family. They donated a monoplane ( a Thulin)to the Finnish army. The Finnish airforce adopted the blue swastika and marked the planes with it. The army used a black upright swastika on tanks. Both was dropped after the wars. About the von Rosen family from Sweden. I think a relative fought for the Biafrans flying a small MFI airplane equipped with rockets and a chewing gum in the plexi as a sight during the conflict.
The 1895 is very common in Finland as a lot was "liberated", mostly modified as it was not allowed to use the 7,62x54R for hunting. They were bored to 8,2 and 9,3mm using the same case, ie 8,2x 53R and 9,3x53R. Usually the stock was modified not allowing to fasten a bayonet. Some remain in the original caliber as collectors guns. Had one several years ago that was modified to 45-70Govt. Traded it for a Winchester 70 in .458.