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Thread: some tips that may help.

  1. #61
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    Interesting range results. I took the rifle out cold and fired ten shots with the Permatex/Ivory lube out of the barrel that had last been fired with a long string of paper-patched boolits lubed with JPW. No cleaning beforehand, and the leading edge of the rifling still had the faintest hint of lead in the very bottom corners from some soft hunting loads I'd shot before the last string of PP. Three into an 1-1/4" triangle, then it settled down into a half-inch group, this is at 50 yards. The rifling was clean as a whistle, no lead traces, and an oily film was evident in the bore with a slight lube star.

    So I let it cool for about 20 minutes and fired five of my "standard" load, exact same as the first group, but with Summertime Felix lube. Four went into 1/4" which is fairly typical except for one flyer because of the jerk behind the trigger and a creaky bag/stock interface.

    The strange thing is the muzzle end was bone dry and streaked with light leading in the grooves, not a problem I usually have with this load and lube. I think the Felix lube didn't like the other stuff, or there was some leading from the first string somewhere that worked its way down to the muzzle.

    I'm going to try more of the synth. grease/Ivory stuff later, with a clean barrel and shoot a lot more of them, also at longer ranges.

    Another observation was that the synth. grease/Ivory group was a full inch lower at 50 than the FWFL group, which is very consistenly dead-on at that range. Looks like I need to chronograph the next batch, too.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  2. #62
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    it could be that fine line again.
    where slippery adds to the bbl coating, reducing friction, but makes it harder for the lead to grip the rifling too.
    im not done with this, i just need to broaden the search some.
    maybe that "j" stick we discussed before will show some promise. i have some 22's in the garage i'll have to get ready.
    but i am going into the 40-70 temp range this time of year so all i'll get is a comparison with no extremes. this might take another 6 months to draw conclusions from.
    unless i get fairly radical with a cooler.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  3. #63
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    At about 80 degrees, I go sailing, not shooting. At about 25 degrees, I run for the pickup, and sit there with the heater going until everyone agrees that it's time to go home, build a large, hot fire and drink Kahluah and coffee.

    I've done all that march-or-die stuff, and those days are three decades in the past.

    I had absolutely no idea that lube was like a separate science! So I need to master pouring, and then start studying lube? Or can the two be studied together?

    If I restrict my shooting to 1911s, and I restrict it to the temperatures above, (easily accomplished) does the lube choice get simpler?

  4. #64
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    Jammer Six, lube performance is one of those things that crops up way, way into advanced cast boolit shooting, when little quirks start to pop up that get annoying and make a person strive for fixes. Most of the time, for most shooting, lubes like NRA 50/50, White Label BAC, Felix Lube, etc. work just fine, or can be altered slightly for best performance in a given climate. If you shoot just .45 ACP when the weather's comfy, melt some beeswax and Vaseline together under low heat and call it good.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  5. #65
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    it's good!


  6. #66
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    about anything will work in low stress medium temperature situations.
    b-wax and parrafin 50-50 will work good too.
    it's at the extremes of pressure/velocity/and temperature that issues arise.
    it can be the difference between a 1" group or bigger because of flyers,or making a group better and more consistent over a long period of time.
    i will dress and shoot in -20 [thats about my limit] unless the wind is blowing.
    when it gets over 90 is when i give up, i fortnatly can drive to a higher,much higher, elevation in about 15-20 minutes lowering the temperature quickly.
    we have snowball fights in august sometimes.....


    i am starting to work with some synthetic grease with 2% propylene glycol in it. straight and tacky.
    this has dome well by not melting after 2 quick 1:30 times back to back in the microwave. and then going straight into the freezer.
    and then a modified version of the 45/45/10 lube in the same rifle.
    i may have a short window of temp extremes available this/next week where i can do some early morning high elevation cold temp shooting then come off the mountain and catch some 65* afternoons.
    if the road is open......
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  7. #67
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    If I limited my shooting to temps between 25 and 80 I would eliminate much of the year in Nebraska.
    Like Gar said, I have had little trouble in many situations with lubes at either temp extreme. In cold weather it is oly a couple guns with cold barrel problems and in heat I haven't had any problems, yet. I think smaller diameter, lighter bullets are a bigger problem. My 32-20 gives cold barrel flyers but my 45-70 doesn't. Maybe the heavier bullet can overcome the barrel condition problem?
    I have not noticed any issues in a handgun at all, then again I haven't shot them froma bench to get a feel for any small differences temp may make. I don't think a mil-spec 1911 is going to notice any temp differences from a decent lube.

  8. #68
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    Fluorinated grease??

    Has anyone considered this before?
    Something I've had put down in my lube notebook to investigate is the use of Fluorinated Grease (PFPE)and wheter or not it would be suitable in use as a boolit lube.
    One brand is Dupont Krytox. There are others out there DOW has one. The Krytox also comes in a non-contact food grade offering.
    A few things I know about fluorinated grease:
    1. first and foremost is it is NOT compatible with regular petroleum and synthetic lubricants. So barrels would have to be thoroughly cleaned before using PFPE lube and after if a conventional lube is to be used.
    2. exhibits superior performance from -70*F to 750*F depending on which forumulation
    3. contains no silicone
    4. it's basically synthetic fluorinated oil and teflon
    5. no flash or fire point
    6. excellent wear resistance, high load carrying ability
    7. usually indicated in high temp applications but often specified for it wear resistance alone
    8. chemically inert, Insoluble in hydrocarbons, petroleum distillates,
    water, steam, chemical solvents and acids/bases
    9. i know from personal experience it only takes a very thin film
    10. if a boolit lube was made it would have the distinction of being the saffron of lubes. It costs me about $35 for a 2oz tube.

    We use it in a clean room environment and have not had any issues except for the noncomptibility I mentioned earlier.

    As far as a carrier, I don't have any input on this. I don't, haven't investigated it's compatibility with natural products we are usually discussing on this forum. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of greases and fluorinated lube can help shed some light on this.
    This stuff might be too good (read too high lubricity) as a boolit lube, IDK. Or it might work really well in the summer and the winter, again IDK.
    I just thought I'd throw it out there since I didn't get any search before on the subject and thought in an "advance lube thread" it might be a good topic.

  9. #69
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    airc this is petro floro petro etylene.
    cousin to petro tetra floro etylene.
    you have to be real careful with this category of oils as they can burn and release flourine gas.

    the slicky is about the easiest thing to find for lube ingredients, getting it mixed with something that flows and flexes under pressure yet remains stable at temp extrememes and to keep on doing that consistently, and in the bbl also between uses is the ultimate goal.

    i can swab a bbl before leaving the house to lay a coating in it to help the first shot.
    but that's just a bandaid.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  10. #70
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    The slick part certainly doesn't appear to be the problem. If Run can add ATF and the lube does well in winter and Gear can add some Vaseline and get same results then it isn't so much a "lube" problem as much as itis a "hardness" problem.
    The hardness to me comes from the carrier, not the "lube" part of the mix.

    The tough part of testing things like this is that I can't get both temp extremes in a reasonable time frame. In a few months I can see how heat changes things but for cold it is gonna be a while.

  11. #71
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    Different lube types have different operating characteristics (thermal stability, freezing and boiling points, viscosity). Then you have to modify it with a carrier.
    the lube affects the carrier viscosity, and is adjusted in ratios to get the desired consistency. i.e. PAO oils make beeswax tacky. Several of the loob recipes here use a PAO. Keep adding oil and you eventually end up with syrup. That's why there are so many different formulas for grease and different recipes to fill the grooves with loob. Most of the modifications I see are using a lube to thin. ATF and vasoline example above is a good example, both lubricants added to a loob that was already good enough for a broad range of applications.
    SLC-400 synthetic cryogenic grease also comes to mind as a lube that meets specific application criteria to perform from sub-zero to more normal temps. I had actually forgot about it until I went through my liquid N2 notes from some time back.
    Bens Red uses grease as the main ingredient. Maybe SLC-400 would be a good substitute for the Lucas Hi-temp grease and give better cold temp performance. might not even need the ATF for thinning given the SLC400s performance.
    I'm not saying to change the 'slick' unless there is a better slick that has better or broader low to high temp characteristics. Just saying look at the lubes temperature stability/operating characteristics, then look to the carrier, then adjust with other modifiers. There are so many advanced lubricants nowadays it only takes money to design and build the perfect boolit loob.

  12. #72
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    the temp window necessary is not all that large.
    the monkey wrench is the pressure,sealing ability,and the shear factor of rotation.
    then you throw in the bbl's condition of hot/cold/humidity.
    and long periods of non use, where you lose it's pristine smooth gloss.
    and things become more complicated.
    most synthetics truly are just hydrocarbons broken down further into smaller chains allowing them to get into smaller imperfections in the metals and adhering [giving them a larger footprint] to them better.
    which creates a better shear strength, they arent slicker there's just more of them gliding over each other.
    i too am convinced that the base is the key to what happens with this.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  13. #73
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    You guys are making my head hurt... I ain't never going to be this good at casting boolits...

  14. #74
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    Jammer, this stuff will never be noticed by many cast bullet shooters. I never noticed this until the past few years and I have been shooting cast for approaching 30 years.
    I agree with Gear when he says this is getting into the Ph D level of cast bullet shooting.

    Heck, it makes my head hurt. Part of the magic of a site like this is the ability to ring people together who have such a wide range of academic, personal, and work knowledge. This combination plus the open sharing of info makes for a wealth of knowledge. We are truly blessed to have this sharing of knowledge, even when it hurts my head!

  15. #75
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    I just had a hallucination, er thought. We've mentioned Speed Green and Lotak here previously. The thought is - what is the possibility that beezwax with a little synthetic oil in it works differently than the lubes we've been dealing with so far here and elsewhere? Is it possible that it simply leaves a coating of the synthetic oil on the barrel (you can't dodge that one, that is all it could possibly do)? The point I'm making is - what if the reason it works so well is that it doesn't do all of that other stuff? Just some oil, & done? No nothing else on the barrel, no large amount of lube to purge or burn, or whatever. If so, when making Lotak, maybe be real careful to not get too much carnauba in it! Or maybe the oil softens the carnauba, making it not build up, or purge?
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  16. #76
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    I have never grid speed green so I can't say for certain Leftiye. The key to me is how well does speed green work in 100 degree heat in summer and does it give cold barrel flyers in the 30 degree range? That is the real test.

    I don't know if two cycle oil has been tried with micro wax. Bet it would be too soft for hot weather use.

  17. #77
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    i have thought the same thing.
    i have talked to dan and daniel about this some time back.
    daniel did not have a clue but he knew it worked.
    dan wasn't sure of the mechanisms involved either and he had another issue to deal with which cut short the discussion.
    he did modify it however for the other lube, lotak, i never got into that one with him though.
    if the synthetic oil is changing the bees wax somehow i wouldn't have a clue as to what it would be doing.
    bees wax is mostly alcohols [ester as i recall] so it truly would just be a carrier for the two stroke.
    i have a feeling that the alcohols in the beeswax act on the fats in the carnuba making it harder and possibly more brittle in nature and that is why the percentage of carnuba has to be so low in a beeswax recipe.
    now a synthetic versus a regular two stroke would be something else.
    and a simple lube is the best kind.
    the bbl coating is essential and is why i chose atf as a final modifier.
    a regular two stroke and micro would be viable as the oil would be a lube and a modifier [plasticizer] of the parrafin.
    i don't think it would hurt to try it but have a feeling something else would be needed.
    i really wish i could get some sperm whale oil and give that a whirl with beeswax...
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  18. #78
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    I haven't messed much with Lotak, although I made some. I also have some speed green that I have shot, it's ok but not what I'm looking for. I'm avoiding the two-stroke oils right now because they are formulated to BURN. Burn CLEAN, yes, but still burn. Using Bullplate for a sprue plate lube will show you right quick how much organic vapor it lets off as it decomposes, and I don't want it leaving the lube or the barrel. That's why I'm experimenting with fully-synthetic ATF, that stuff is designed for lots of heat, pressure, shear, and oxidation prevention. Not to mention anti-foaming properties. Synthetic ATF, carnauba, and beeswax makes about as good a lube as I've shot, but it has some issues of its own related to the carrier that I haven't worked out completely.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  19. #79
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    Why not just use JPW? Tumble lube or use a little parafin to provide some consistency? Or just use it to wipe down the barrel prior to going out into the cold? I guess we could also wipe down our bores with a heavy duty silicone lube prior to shooting in a cold environment. Good discussion. I am learning a lot.
    lt

  20. #80
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    luvtn and anybody else.
    this discussion continues in the lube section.
    geargnasher started a thread called the quest for ulimate lube.
    that one really gets into the crux of what happens,where this leads to, and explains a whole lot about lube ingredients,how lube works,and is still ongoing.
    there are some good recipes and discussion on why some ingredients that have traditionally been recommended are not the better ingredients to use.
    there are some recipes and ideas that you will not see anyplace else.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

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