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Thread: some tips that may help.

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
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    funny you mention the paper patching.
    i was messing with it in my oldest girls 7.7
    the first shot was the best one, dead center perfect. after that it threw flyers.
    she got impatient and just wanted to shoot.
    she took to shooting the first one with the paper,then following it up with cast.
    her solution, dang good one too.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  2. #42
    Boolit Master leftiye's Avatar
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    Lube your patches? Googled hydrogenated castor oil, they said it equals castor wax. Same thing?

    Have you tried your soy wax lube with castor wax? I'm a proponent of coating the barrel being a big factor (if not the whole ball of wax) in function of boolit lube. If you could just coat the barrel with the right stuff and if it would stay there, it might all be over with lube exploration. However, Carnauba and molybdenum disulphide cannot be applied in more than trace amounts and should probly be limited to 1% of the total lube, and as btroj said carnauba gets real hard when it is cold.

    Felix once suggested that castor wax by itself was a passable lube, if not up to par with the best lubes. Bullshop with Bzwax and a synthetic oil (Lotak) shot 3000 fps plus and hit the target too. Maybe soy wax or castor wax and bull plate or 1to100 synthetic 2 stroke oil would take it to the next level. Throw in a little Moly and a little Carnauba maybe.
    Last edited by leftiye; 03-23-2012 at 08:31 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Yep, lube my patches. Like this:



    Castor "wax" is the same as soy "wax", not really waxes but hydrogenated oils, like crisco and margerine, just more hydrogenated so they become harder.

    I'm really thinking there would be something to the castor wax, but it would probably be too slippery by itself. The soy and castor mixed might be good, but will going down this road really yield something better than the proven formulas we already have? I'm not sure. I haven't even begun to dope out Lotak yet, I think that might prove to be a really good all-around formula too.

    What we need here is a good, synthetic macro-crystalline wax with a melt point of about 200 degrees that's still pliable at 10 degrees and will soak up half it's weight in synthetic two-stroke oil.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    i got to messing with some stuff this afternoon and started a little experiment well 4 actually.
    i was able to get a near crosslink situation to happen with castor oil and ethlyne glycol,and some starting fluid.
    the problem i kept running into was some heat would get the others to mix well and leave a beautiful coating on pete plastic.
    it would however lose it's cling and viscosity everytime i put heat to it.
    i tried alcohol and peg which had some hydrolized castor oil in it [it mixed but seemed to suspend the oil]
    ethylene glycol. [seemed like it was in layers till the heat and then the starting fluid] it then acted like it was trying to cross link but didn't have a solid to link up some guar and a slight ph change would have done it
    methanol and water mixed [didn't want to fully mix without the heat]
    and 90% rubbing alcohol [which just made more thinner castor oil] heat had much less affect on it's viscosity.
    i don't have any pure carnuba or i would have added some.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  5. #45
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    Guar gum? Hadn't thought of that one.

    So what's the trick here, get the glycols and fatty acids to hook up? Then you'd have a slick, homogenous, temperature-stable, semi-solid substance?

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    you'd make a gel.
    the guar needs the ph low to relax then raised for it to hold a crosslink.
    it's slick stuff,comes in a dry form.
    if you got in the dust and forgot about it you would find yourself on the shower floor later.
    i thought about it when i had access to tons of it but not enough to grab some of course.
    the guar powder could work in place of the paper pulp.
    i have seen it suspended in diesel fuel [makes napalm] mineral oil, and just water.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  7. #47
    Boolit Master on Heavens Range
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    You'se guys are doin' great! Keep at it. ... felix
    felix

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    i'm gonna recap a little here.
    bore condition, we have thoughts that the lube in the bbl is drying out causing cracks pits whatever.
    the first shot or two is repairing this condition.
    if it could be maintained i think the first shot issue would be better, much better.
    our viscosity changes when the temp changes,affecting accuracy on the first shot or over a long string.
    the carrier is the biggest component in the lube so has the most affect on the lube.
    waxes and fats are more affected by temp swings than some oils or most "fluids" [hydraulic,synthetic burnables]
    stearates are good boolit lubes.
    what works for the hot doesn't in the cold.

    a combination of a stearate [solid ?], a fluid, and a temp stable carrier would be a big step forward.

    i'm gonna say we haven't made any huge inroads on what we allready knew.
    and like fit is king for the boolit.
    i'm gonna go out on a limb a little bit and say viscosity stability over temp swings is king in lube.
    you can work around it but.....
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  9. #49
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    I am beginning to agree on the need for a lube carrier with viscosity stability over a wide range of temps. Maybe we need to find Mobil 1 synthetic beeswax in multi-viscosity?

    I wonder if a combination of the MML microwave and beeswax would have wider range of suitable temps than either one alone? The microwave seems better in cold, the beeswax in heat.

    I have to beleive the carrier is the biggest problem, it is far and away the major ingredient in the lube.

  10. #50
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    Eliminating a viscosity-unstable carrier has been my primary goal in lube experiments lately. One of the tasty things about the heavily hydrogenated oils is they don't need much of a carrier. The drawback would be that they, too, have large viscosity swings with temperature. I think Lamar was trying to bind some things together to make the hydrogenated oils more stable, that might just work.

    Remember Joe's experiments with soap lubes? One that he said worked pretty well was straight Irish Spring if I remember right. Makes sense, but part of the issue with just using grocery-store soaps is they all have a lot of salt in them, I'm guessing so they stay moist. I've tried a lot of things with stearic acid, but it doesn't work well as a carrier. Glycols absorb water. I don't have any straight Sodium Stearate handy, but I'd like to try it. I still think Joe might be on to something with his beeswax/Ivory/Vaseline/castor lube, maybe with some lanolin even if one could figure out how to mix it in without frying the stuff. Might also work well with two-stroke oil instead of castor, like Lotak with soap instead of carnauba wax as a modifier.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 03-24-2012 at 04:50 PM.
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  11. #51
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    Someone mentioned when you take the barreled action out of the stock. I usually glass bed almost all my rifles, but when I take them apart for a good annual cleaning, I snug up the screws less than full tight, and bump the butt on the floor a few times gently but firmly (try to approximate the gun's recoil level), and then snug the screws while holding the action in place. This tends to minimize any variation in point of impact, etc.

    With scopes using Weaver mounts or on Picatinny rails, I always press the scope/ring unit gently but firmly toward the side that has the screw you turn to snug it up, and also forward, since the scope tends to want to slide FORWARD due to inertia and recoil. This results in near perfect POI maintenance when taking a scope off and replacing it. After all, it only takes a variation of about .001" to make a 1" difference in POI at 100, and proportionately at further distances.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    ben's lube is a good one too the ingredients are right.
    as far as temp swings go,it however, is the carrier [again] that will limit it's use.

    one other thing that will make the carrier suitable will be shrinkage.
    mud is a great slicky till it dries and cracks. [which is i think whats happening in the bbl]

    can't someone just come along and tell us what we need here, i think my easy button is broken.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    good tip there blackwater.
    it's the simple one more step things that can make a big difference.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  14. #54
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    If it was easy anybody could do it! Staples doesn't even know what 16-lb green bar printer paper is.

    I just thought of something else to add to the general comments, boolit aging. When I first joined this forum I didn't know anything about heat-treating or low-antimony alloys, but I heard few members talking about it. One in particular kept mentioning how the longer a water-quenched, low-antimony alloy aged, the better it shot. Well, it's true in some cases. I cast up a huge pile of Lee 312-185 boolits from WD50/50 Wheel weights/roofing lead plus 1% tin a couple of years ago, and I've discovered that they keep shooting better and better in two guns that get fed a lot of different things. Nothing's changed with the loads I'm comparing directly except storage time on the alloy. The tested hardness keeps creeping up there, too, probably the reason.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 03-24-2012 at 07:38 PM.
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  15. #55
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    This is going to get stickied soon. just can't decide if it goes into Classics, stays here or into Lube. Great thoughts here guys.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Gear, I may still have some straight sodium stearate. I ought a kilo or so a few years back for making Felix lube. It is handy to be an RP and have access to ordering from some chemical companies.
    If you are interested in some, let me know. Or let me know what your thoughts were and I can see what I can do.

    I wonder if any micro waxes exist with a higher melt point. That may help eliminate the heat issues with MML.

    Seems to me that a mixture of ingredients is going to be needed for a carrier, I just dont see a single base having the right properties over a 100 degree range.

    I have made a batch of Bens lube. Need to add more beeswax, or something, to stiffen it up a bit. And that stuff is slick! Bad thing is I won't be able to get a feel for it in cold til next fall. I have a feeli it will get tested in heat sooner than I want.

  17. #57
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    ""What we need here is a good, synthetic macro-crystalline wax with a melt point of about 200 degrees that's still pliable at 10 degrees and will soak up half it's weight in synthetic two-stroke oil.""

    how about fumed silica it will mix with about any oil or grease and will form a NON melting grease up to a putty consistancy.
    used to make high end non melt greases and heavy syn lubes.
    PM me I can send out a few jars if anyone wants some to fool with.
    Bruce

  18. #58
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    Bruce381, That's mighty generous of you, will keep it in mind if synthetic grease starts to look like the way to go. I spent the last hour lubing, checking, and loading 20 boolits for my .30-'06 using some Permatex Ultra synthetic brake caliper slide grease and Ivory soap that I made up last summer, it's about the consistency of cookie dough and the egg-sized ball hasn't changed at all since I made it save for picking up some lint and cat hair sitting on a shelf in the shop. It hasn't leached any oil, and hasn't corroded the piece of shined-up .45 ACP brass I stuck in it for a test. We'll see what Mr. Rifle and Professor Target have to say in the morning.

    I've discussed the fumed silica thing a few times here, but haven't tried it yet. Felix and I discussed silicone oils a couple of years ago and he mentioned that there is a point with heat/pressure that the silicone oil will revert to sand, but probably not in a gun barrel. I know that fumed silica is used as the thickener in dielectric silicone grease, but silicone oil makes a pretty lousy metal-to-metal lubricant, as most silicone oils do, so that combination is out I think. I tried looking up the abrasive properties of the fumed silica by itself once and comparting it to that of other substances for reference, but it's been too long since ME classes and the units and figures are all gibberish to me anymore. Having a temperature-insensitive carrier would be great, though, and now you have me wondering if fumed silica and a good petroleum base oil would work. Did you ever make lubricating grease that contained fumed silica?

    I just reread the guar gum thing, seems I missed the part about it taking the place of paper pulp. I was hoping Metamucil would do that, plus it's cheap and readily available, but just mixing it with automotive grease didn't work so well, and the stuff was gritty as heck between the fingers. I was hoping it would act just like a sponge to soak up lube and also provide a physical "stop-leak" to the back side of each driving band while gliding through the bore and then flinging right off at the muzzle. Maybe what I need is dry wood pulp, that's what I was thinking with the baker's flour when I tried it.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    brad, let it sit for a week.
    i always let a lube rest and usually re-melt it once before making any changes.
    after it rests i then put some heat and pressure on it to see how it reacts.
    this also gives me time to see if it softens or hardens.

    i use a triple carrier now and have had pretty good luck with it, still have the first shot from a cold bbl thats up to two inches away [usually less] at 100 yds.
    i use b-wax,soy wax,and parrafin in a 60-40-10 ratio, this still needs a modifier to remain flexible and to get the playdough consistency i like.
    i also went with the yin yang lubes and the moly for a coating that would remain.
    this is modified further for the cold weather.
    i just don't understand the whole add some atf and it's accurate in the cold, leave it out for the summer thing, except for the viscosity change.
    i can run it through the lubesizer without heat at about 70*
    the summer version is just over 90*
    i have crossover temps [40-70] where either one works equally, but i just don't have the extremes covered.
    if it's hot i get juice [wet star] out the bbl from the cold lube.
    and if it's cold i have to fire a whole string of shots to pull things on target with the hot lube.


    anyways that's where my thoughts come from on the need for a "supercarrier"
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  20. #60
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    R5R, that sounds like my experiences with lube performance and temps, verbatim, except I use the basic Felix lube in the summer (with carnauba added) and the Felix/Wiljen formula in winter with much less carnauba and sometimes some Vaseline. I keep a Lyman 45 full of each for the rifles 'cuz I'm lazy. One thing I don't get is cold barrel flyers above 50 degrees with the summer formula, though. The first one will always be in the group, I've tested this over and over again, but below 50 both accuracy and first-shot on target start to fall off badly. MML works great in the cold, what little I've shot it. I've been trying to figure out exactly what's going on with each that might be harnessed into a universal lube, but the basic problem is the components of either formula just flat don't have the temp range to work at their best all year.

    I like the term "supercarrier", that's exactly what we need.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


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