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Thread: some tips that may help.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    some tips that may help.

    throw in your observations,on things you see make a change in load development.
    or what you change if you see something, or just stuff you do when working a new load.

    when testing new loads.
    i have noticed a couple of things.

    1. it takes 7-11 shots for a lube star to appear on a clean bbl depending on your lubes viscosity,and the bbl length.

    2. i have seen just changing a powder and nothing else [velocity,boolit,primer] take 5-7 shots before the new powder residue coats the bbl and the load settles down.
    observed this one today.
    i was shooting a couple of new loads, changed and fired a 6 shot group that was about 2" at 50 yds.
    told littlegirl "that load don't shoot well" she sat down and fired a 6 shot group under 1/2 of an inch.
    the other 8 i fired just made her group rip the paper some more.

    3. i have seen new scopes and rings put on a rifle take as many as 20 shots to calm down and take a set in place.
    same thing after pulling the action from the stock.

    4. first shot flyers [the boolit not in with the rest of the shots] can usually be attributed to a hard lube, but lube purging is usually attributed to soft lube building up in a bbl.
    viscosity matters more than actual lube makeup.


    theres more, let's see what y'all have.

    on the 5th page I start adding in links to helpful threads that didn't get made into sticky's.
    keep the good stuff coming.
    Last edited by runfiverun; 03-20-2013 at 10:54 PM. Reason: add info
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  2. #2
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    Good topic, this could get interesting.

    Barrel condition is critical to accuracy. Changing powders, lubes, cleaning it, getting it hot, etc. change things, sometimes greatly depending on how much fouling your barrel "normally" accumulates. This is why I strive to develop loads that preclude the need to clean the bore, it takes 5-10 shots to get it back to normal when I do.

    I have a decent understanding of lube function and have "known good" lube recipes for some broad categories of shooting, so I usually consider lube a constant, one of the last things I tweak if it's letting go of the boolit properly and not giving obvious purge flyers. One thing about lube that DOES matter a great deal (aside from slickness and viscosity) is the amount. I usually get the best accuracy from rifles with a minimum number of grooves lubed, sometimes only one or two and the rest empty.

    I do "lube jettison" tests on all my rifle loads to see if I need to tweak the lube for the temperature range or velocity of the load. This involves shooting through clean cardboard at ten feet and scraping off the lube splatter to compare with the amount the boolit had on it when it was loaded. If it doesn't all go, the lube gets softened. There is a difference between softening it and adding lubricity, a point often missed. This is where paraffin and petroleum jelly comes in handy rather than adding more lubricating oil. If I get purge flyers every few rounds and an excessive lube star on the muzzle, often the cardboard will have a liquid spatter on it and less lube than the boolit carried. This is a sign to add more soap or carnauba wax, or better yet use a different, harder (more viscous) formula with less lubricity.

    Things I change in an attempt to improve accuracy: Neck tension, boolit hardness/toughness/composition, final sized diameter, chamber neck clearance, crimp (style and amount, if any), primer brand, and of course powder type and charge weight.

    Fillers are a thing unto themselves. Simply altering the amount of compression slightly with a compacting filler can make worlds of difference when fine-tuning a load. Dacron is more forgiving, amounts can vary by 1/4 grain or more and not affect anything adversely.

    If I'm working up a load and not getting the expected accuracy, I check lube jettison and chronograph a string to check for extreme velocity variations first, then do a sort of "ladder test" with the powder charge to see if there's a sweet spot, and then I move on to changing powder type or playing with the nuances of alloy, case work, boolit fit, etc. I'm interested to see what others have to day as well, might upgrade my process a bit.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  3. #3
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    What? You guys mean there isn't a magic formula that will give me 900 bazillion Bhn lead that will erase all signs of leading and give me .25" groups at 4900fps????!!!!

    Who knew?!

  4. #4
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    3. i have seen new scopes and rings put on a rifle take as many as 20 shots to calm down and take a set in place.
    same thing after pulling the action from the stock.
    My first .35 Whelen that I built took about 45 shots before it settled down and really started grouping well. I was really regreting putting an Adams and Bennett barrel on it until it suddenly started putting three rounds under an inch.

    I also assembled a 10-22 into a silhouette rifle that took a lot more shooting than I thought it should have. Once everything worked into place, or the barrel broke in groups went from two inches at twentyfive yards to hiding undera dime.

    Those were the only two that really gave me problems, most of the other rifles I have rebarreled have done good to great from the first round.

    Robert

  5. #5
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    And temperature makes a huge difference in needed lube hardness. The warmer it is, the harder you can generally go. I have lubes that work great at temps above 50 degrees but are a bit touchy below that. Other lubes work very well at low temps but may be a bit soft and runny at 90 plus degrees. YOU need to decide if this is an issue for your needs. First shot, cold barrel flyers are a problem for me for hunting. They are not a big deal for shooting at the range for fun.

  6. #6
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    Gear has a handle on lube. I try for one that always does best in my revolvers. I have found if my lube is not working for conditions, all the rest I tested also went south. It has done the same for me as primers where one primer changes powder burn with weather, the rest also got worse. I can't talk rifles as I have no more to shoot cast in.
    But I do not buy into cold barrel shot throwing that much, I will fix the gun. But clean barrels do throw shots yet in all the years of IHMSA shooting and hunting it just came down to needing one shot. I was in trouble if I went to a shoot with a clean bore. You can miss a deer with a clean bore.
    Lube rings at the muzzle are not needed unless you shoot BP. You then need fouling softening that is not as important with smokeless. You do not need a ton of grease in the bore.
    The important thing about lube is having a consistent friction with every shot. I would hate to shoot a dozen shots and heat the barrel before shooting the deer.
    Lube purge at the muzzle should be there after one shot, not a dozen. All lube should leave a boolit at the same time. Or it should ALL stay in the grooves so if you need to shoot a lot looking for a grease ring, put a zerk fitting in the barrel and use a grease gun!
    Some lubes Diesel from pressure or ignite from a low flash point in the bore. If you get smoke from smokeless, lube is burning.
    Never thought you might be shooting a diesel engine, did you?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mk42gunner View Post
    My first .35 Whelen that I built took about 45 shots before it settled down and really started grouping well. I was really regreting putting an Adams and Bennett barrel on it until it suddenly started putting three rounds under an inch.

    I also assembled a 10-22 into a silhouette rifle that took a lot more shooting than I thought it should have. Once everything worked into place, or the barrel broke in groups went from two inches at twentyfive yards to hiding undera dime.

    Those were the only two that really gave me problems, most of the other rifles I have rebarreled have done good to great from the first round.

    Robert

    When I install a barreled action into the stock I use a torque wrench to tighten all screws, same when I install a scope. I read an article about breaking in a new scope that stated one should turn the turret adjusting knobs to the extreme in each direction at least 50 times then return to center. This is supposed to seat-in the threads. Have'nt tried it but it does make sence. When I make a scope adjustment at the range I usually tap the turret lightly with a non-marring object.

    Larry

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
    What? You guys mean there isn't a magic formula that will give me 900 bazillion Bhn lead that will erase all signs of leading and give me .25" groups at 4900fps????!!!!

    Who knew?!
    Now what do I do with all that wrinkled rice paper I've been trying to walk on..........

    Larry Gibson

    BTW; +!+ on gear's lube assesment. I use a good lube that is a proven performer to begin with and it's then one of the last things that is suspect, if suspect at all, to accuracy problems. But then what can I say, I don't shoot sub moa groups at 300 yards with a factory Browning rifle, with or without a BOSS, ..........

    Larry Gibson

  9. #9
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    44man, I have had much cold barrel flyer problems in a couple rifles. The worst is my Marlin 32-20 in sub 40 degree weather with Carnuba Red lube. Takes 4 or 5 shots to warm the barrel enough to get a decent group. I have a feeling that adding a bitof Vaseline to soften it up would make a difference.

    I also think itis very important to always look at the needs of the load when determine the required characteristics. If I am hunting where the max range on deer is 50 yards why do I care if the load only shoots 3 inch groups at 100 yards. This also means I will tolerate some leading for a higher velocity hunting load as long as I can get 5 or 10 accurate shots between cleanings. That would or be acceptable in a load developed for heavy rane or plinking use.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Now what do I do with all that wrinkled rice paper I've been trying to walk on..........

    Larry Gibson

    BTW; +!+ on gear's lube assesment. I use a good lube that is a proven performer to begin with and it's then one of the last things that is suspect, if suspect at all, to accuracy problems. But then what can I say, I don't shoot sub moa groups at 300 yards with a factory Browning rifle, with or without a BOSS, ..........

    Larry Gibson

    Larry, Like me, I guess you just need more practice! Like you, my lube is the last thing I would suspect. I might change the number of lube grooves filled but I have never changed lube since I started using FWFL.

    One of the first things I might adjust is seating depth. Another thing is can or should I add a filler. I have seen a small piece of Dacron filler greatly improve accuracy.

    If I change powder I always start testing with a clean bore.

    Larry Miller

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    44man, I have had much cold barrel flyer problems in a couple rifles. The worst is my Marlin 32-20 in sub 40 degree weather with Carnuba Red lube. Takes 4 or 5 shots to warm the barrel enough to get a decent group. I have a feeling that adding a bitof Vaseline to soften it up would make a difference.

    I also think itis very important to always look at the needs of the load when determine the required characteristics. If I am hunting where the max range on deer is 50 yards why do I care if the load only shoots 3 inch groups at 100 yards. This also means I will tolerate some leading for a higher velocity hunting load as long as I can get 5 or 10 accurate shots between cleanings. That would or be acceptable in a load developed for heavy rane or plinking use.
    I see where you are---40* below---WOW. CR is too hard.
    I remember using a tube of wonder lube or something when muzzle loader hunting in cold weather. I needed to run over the tube with a truck to get any out. I went to Young Country lube.
    Felix gets stiff too but other lubes need a sledge to use.
    A lube should not melt and run in hot weather but should not get hard and brittle in the cold. Pretty hard to find.
    -40* is where you should be next to a big fire with a bag of jerky!

  12. #12
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    I should have gotten into this hobby before age 36... I don't know if I'll have the years to learn all of this stuff you guys know!! I get into a thread like this and I'm just overwhelmed. You guys are so bright, detailed and curious! I love it. It also makes we worry, but I'll keep taking baby-steps to get there!! -Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by 44man View Post
    ....Lube rings at the muzzle are not needed unless you shoot BP. You then need fouling softening that is not as important with smokeless. You do not need a ton of grease in the bore. My experience has proven the same thing. Lube, really, isn't so much of a lube as a sealer, like oil on piston rings. Really greasy, slick lubes throw boolits everywhere. Lube "stars" are actually something I try to avoid. If I'm getting one it means the lube is too slick, too soft, and is being liquified in the grooves on the way down the barrel, or blown past the boolit due to gas leaks. I want the lube to come off, but not in a liquid spray.
    The important thing about lube is having a consistent friction with every shot. If you could put everything about lube in a nutshell, that would be it! I would hate to shoot a dozen shots and heat the barrel before shooting the deer.
    Lube purge at the muzzle should be there after one shot, not a dozen. This is the secret to having a lube that doen't throw the first shot, assuming the bore is conditioned.All lube should leave a boolit at the same time. Or it should ALL stay in the grooves Yep. What did Runfiverun say? "It either all needs to stay or go'. so if you need to shoot a lot looking for a grease ring, put a zerk fitting in the barrel and use a grease gun!
    Some lubes Diesel from pressure or ignite from a low flash point in the bore. If you get smoke from smokeless, lube is burning. I've suspected this for a long time, but never heard it mentioned before. I never did figure out what the self-ignition pressure of pure, macro-parrafin (candle wax) is, but I suspect that a .30-'06 or .44 Magnum develop about 10-15 times the pressure needed to ignite diesel fuel.
    Never thought you might be shooting a diesel engine, did you?
    Quote Originally Posted by 44man View Post
    I see where you are---40* below---WOW. CR is too hard.
    I remember using a tube of wonder lube or something when muzzle loader hunting in cold weather. I needed to run over the tube with a truck to get any out. I went to Young Country lube.
    Felix gets stiff too but other lubes need a sledge to use.
    A lube should not melt and run in hot weather but should not get hard and brittle in the cold. Pretty hard to find.
    -40* is where you should be next to a big fire with a bag of jerky! ...And a flask of good brandy!
    Quote Originally Posted by birdadly View Post
    I should have gotten into this hobby before age 36... I don't know if I'll have the years to learn all of this stuff you guys know!! I get into a thread like this and I'm just overwhelmed. You guys are so bright, detailed and curious! I love it. It also makes we worry, but I'll keep taking baby-steps to get there!! -Brad
    Birdadly, threads like these can take your learning curve to lightspeed. 44Man has been shooting cast boolits for way longer than either of us has been alive, and he's learned a thing or two in that time the hard way. One sentence of facts might take a person 20 years to discover on their own, but a little reading and educated experimenting can put you way ahead. I've learned more in three years on this forum than I did the entire 16 years of casting and shooting I did before discovering it.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


  14. #14
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    I have learned more about shooting cast in the past 10 years than I did in the previous 20.
    What happened is that I began to question all the conventional wisdom. I o longer believed that any old lube was good enough. I leaned that harder isn't always better. I learned that a " proper" size for bullets didn't really exist, the gun wanted what it wanted. I learned that there are makers of moulds beyond Lyman, Lee, and RCBS. I learned to try, test, and learn.

    I discovered this site and my eyes were opened. I learned to not beleive all I saw in print. I learned to see what works for me, there is no one right answer.

    My best piece of advice for the new guy is this- go shoot! You learn more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench that anywhere else. Once you have put a few hundred pounds of lead down range you will have a much better idea of what does and doesn't work. You will know what your guns do and don't like.m leading and poor accuracy are not failures, they are learning tools. They teach you what not to do which can be as important as knowing what to do.

  15. #15
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    Hey 44 man- I meant below 40 degrees, not 40 below.

    The 32-20 is an extreme case. Small diameter, light bullet. I think the lube is just stiff enough to cause problems. This isn't an issue in my 45-70. Again, it is key to know that not all guns behave the same in all conditions.

    I will say that Felix lube has never been an issue for me at any temp. My only issue with it is that it does gunk up my guns more than other lubes. Not fouling, just a general blow of lube all over that gets messy. I may go back to it anyway, it does work quite well.

  16. #16
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    @Gear



    In essence we all shoot 1 cylinder, single stroke engines with floating pistons

  17. #17
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    carnuba red is a fine summertime lube, it is not a cold weather lube i don't think it's good under @50*.

    dieseling was first observed when they used to dip jaxketed bullets in oil for some target shooting in the 0'3s.
    hatcher [it think] was the first to observe it at frankford arsenal.
    i think you have to push the lube in front of the boolit to cause dieseling, otherwise it's from gas cutting.

    weight sorting the small boolits is critical no matter how good the casting is.
    from a test i done recently.
    i cast them from 4/6/90 alloy, and visualed 22 boolits,sized and checked them.
    then shortened the nose and reshaped the boolits in my swaging dies, then resized/lubed them again.
    which makes a pretty soft boolit with a flat nose for hunting.
    pushing them in the 223-22/250/and the swift with 22.5 grs of 4895 around 2700 fps.
    i weight sorted 10,didn't for 10 for two different sets 20 each.
    and 10 weight sorted, 10 unsorted, same known load of unswaged boolits.

    the unweighed boolits threw flyers from every group,even with the swaging that shoulda squished out most all the air voids.
    the swaging also work softens the alloy,which still shoots under 1/2" for 5 shots [at 100 yds] in the 2700fps range proving the fit over hardness rule.

    oddly the bigger around things get the less a little weight variation seems to matter.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by btroj View Post
    Hey 44 man- I meant below 40 degrees, not 40 below.

    The 32-20 is an extreme case. Small diameter, light bullet. I think the lube is just stiff enough to cause problems. This isn't an issue in my 45-70. Again, it is key to know that not all guns behave the same in all conditions.

    I will say that Felix lube has never been an issue for me at any temp. My only issue with it is that it does gunk up my guns more than other lubes. Not fouling, just a general blow of lube all over that gets messy. I may go back to it anyway, it does work quite well.
    OK, sorry, I read it wrong. But 40* is not that bad. I have gone to -10* with Felix.
    I get a lot on .44 brass but nothing on 45-70 brass, it is so clean it does not need tumbled. No explanation but 45-70 brass comes out very clean. My other calibers will have some lube on the brass.
    Now you should see my dies, press handle and bench when I use Felix! You can't see through the plastic boxes my Lee dies are in.
    I don't like clean lead boolits with just lube in grooves.

  19. #19
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    My Marlin 45 Colt has a huge chamber, the loads with Felix lube were horribly dirty in the chamber. Luckily it was a soft fouling so the action ran fine and chambering was never an issue. It was just a mess to clean out when the time came.

    I am beginning to learn more and more about how viscosity affects lube based upon temp. This is a new factor for me to pay attention to this year.

  20. #20
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    Brad, try only sizing the part of the case that holds the boolit.

    Gear
    You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something. --Stephen Adams

    To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand.--CharGar

    Being able to separate the wheat from the chaff has always been a valuable skill in all of life's activities. --Bwana


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check