seems like we all got a little off center here. when i origanally posted this i was looking for others that duplex load so i could compare what my findings were with theirs. dont missunderstand ...i like the different outlooks on this papering a boolit and like seeing someone get advise that would help but seems like we forgot the origanal post.
whats the difference?? It's all the same subject,right?
I am not to concerned about it...
keep on rolling along.no matter what happens just keep rolling
i suppose the difference would be that when YOU begin a post and it goes off subject i would expect YOU to not be concerned about that one either. there are many subjects in this shooting game and they get muddled up with going too far off the main subject that is origanally posted. beings you are the main one that has run this off subject i spose that it dosnt "concern you"
im not exactly sure who you think is feeding you a line of bull but i hope you dont think that i am as i only post about things i do. i load and shoot and experiment every day i have off. the things i write about are the things i actually do and there is the twist from some who spend most of their time writing and posting instead of doing a few things that are mentioned and trying some things on their own
i might have gotten a bit ruffled here and if i stepped on someones toes i opoligize! but beings i did start this thread i guess ill leave the words in play and see what shakes out.
Guess you told me didn't you....soory if I said something that got you all stemed and up set..Sonds like your thong was too tight or something..All I want is some info and you get all pissed off..No wonder people don't like you and they never will...Was your coffee cold or did you burn your toast...I fail to see your point..All it is is a forum board...Get down of your high horse and be happy....Jesus loves you...So be happy and chill.....Have a wonderful week end....John
Hey ck45!!No wonder people don't like you and they never will...
You can't say nobody likes him or they never will.
Jesus loves him.
And I do.
And this kind of talk is exactly why I left this forum a couple of years ago. There is no call for it.
Here is the point since you fail to see it: The question that started this thread is quote:"i guess my question is thusly...has anyone here tryed or experimented with these duplex loads and what was or is your outcome?"
That is a simple and straight forward question. There is no mistaking what he is talking about or asking for comments on. This thread is, or it at least it was, intended to be about duplex loading. It's okay that you don't know anything about it, but it is NOT okay when you try to deflect the discussion to what you want to talk about and then make snide comments when that does not happen.
Start your own thread about whatever you want to talk about and if we can help you, we will. But there is no reason to be rude when you are reminded about Internet forum manners. All this is is a forum board. You are correct about that. But the rules of good manners and civility we all expect are not suspended here just because we can't reach out and grab you up by your neck, twist off your head, and spit down your throat. But if we could, I'm betting we would all be a lot nicer to each other.
I leave you now in the grace and favor of our lord Jesus and pray that all of you boys have a blessed Easter.
Last edited by Black Prince; 04-06-2012 at 08:04 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
well this is why I am leaving it as well...So long and thanks for the advice you offered to me...Bye
well this is why I am leaving it as well...So long and thanks for the advice you offered to me...Bye
__________________
keep on rolling along.no matter what happens just keep rolling
Good bye and good ridance.
Getting back to the main subject (before all the drama happened)
I have wondered the same thing about duplex loads but I dont think it would work to bump up a boolit because its not changing the reason why smokeless powder does not like to do this.
If you look at it, BP produces much less pressure than SP does but it almost always tries to bump the boolits. Whats the difference? SP burns and BP explodes. I theorize that the reason why SP doesn't bump the boolits is because of a gentler (albeit larger) pressure curve, coupled with the fact that the boolit is already moving by the time the part of the powder that does the bumping gets to the base of the boolit.
Having a duplex load would make the process faster perhaps, but at the end of the day, the cartridge has to burn a lot of powder before it gets to the base of the boolit.
BP doesn't have that problem, because for all intents and purposes, the powder all goes up right where it is.
Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.
Tom, I won't attempt to explain it because I am certainly no expert on it. I have read the explainations in various places, magazines, and journals and they seem reasonable to me. Elmer Keith wrote a good bit about it in one of his books and even experimented with it when he worked at one of the government arsonals during World War II. Julian Hatcher also wrote briefly about it in one of this books. All I know is that it does work and that it does bump up bullets. I cannot tell any difference at all shooting straight black powder loads and duplex loads other that the duplex loads are so clean you would think that you are shooting straight smokeless loads.I have wondered the same thing about duplex loads but I dont think it would work to bump up a boolit because its not changing the reason why smokeless powder does not like to do this
And because you can't tell, and no one else can tell, that is why if you shoot NRA matches, they randomly select a cartridge from the loads you are going to shoot in the match and pull the bullet and check the charge. That is about the only way you can tell. Otherwise you get the exact same result as if you shot straight black powder except for the fouling.
I have recovered bullets with bore riding nose designs shot with duplex loads that were bumped up to a full diameter their entire length. When the nose bumps up, you can be pretty sure the base and the entire bullet did.
If you are set up to reload, and you are interested enough to load a few duplex loads, give'm a try and I'll bet you'll find that they will bump up bullets and that you cannot tell any difference between your duplex loads and your straight black powder loads other than you'll get clean barrels and chambers with the duplex loads.
All the best to you.
Last edited by Black Prince; 04-07-2012 at 01:05 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
i agree completely about the duplex bumping like the pure smokeless do not. the blackpowder is still ahead of a pretty miniscule amount of sp but in my opinion the sp with its burn is exactly what BURNS out the fouling from the black. i dont know this all for a fact...just surmising with a bit of reassoning on my part which definetly dont make it rite.
guess i must have rattled that poor fella pretty good as he even took the time to write me a personal dig in the private messages section...hope he dont get apaplexi over this. bless his heart anyway! well my granny used to say that if everyone agreed with ya then it would be a pretty boring place...recon becouse im not liked all that much according to some...so...ill just stick around and see what goes on.
ive loaded the duplex loads in the bore diameter and groove diameter and i by far like the groove diameter patching best with any kinda powder. i really like the fact that i dont have to size my cases but just a smidge and this keeps em pristine and allows me to believe that im not wearing them out with the back n forth of the sizing/shooting them back out to be sized again and so on.
the bore diameter have given me good accuracy so far ...its just that i like the treatment that the groove diameted boolits give my cases.
all in all im just havin a ball with all this paperin the boolits and the dandy duplex loading. cant wait for the next days off to play further with em.
No. They both burn (deflagrate) under ordinary conditions. They have very different burn rate pressure coefficients, so smokeless burns much slower at low pressure than equivalent grain size black would.Originally Posted by goodsteel
Black powder is an excellent igniter for developing initial chamber pressure and igniting fuel surfaces, which is why such an ancient propellant formulation still has a role in modern pyrotechnic igniters (such as in rocket motors). The hot solid combustion products produced by bp are better at igniting fuel surfaces than the hot gases alone produced by more efficient propellants... They also develop chamber pressure more quickly allowing smokeless to burn at a higher initial rate.
I don't know about bumping up of the bullet as I have never played with duplex, and had lousy luck with the lee modern miniballs and went to sabots.
I would say though that a bullet bumping up is a sign of high bullet base pressure, and that higher pressures than expected with conventional loads can of course be a cause for concern if they are sufficiently high so as to exceed design specs. Do they get high enough to just be useful but not dangerous?
I have no idea. I find the history interesting though, and would love to know. If there were a safe way to get less fouling in my muzzleloader without wearing parts of it in my face, that would be awesome.
Does this approach work if the bp is loaded first? Does the smokeless have to be fast burning? Does excess pressure result and fouling occur if the powders are mixed?
I am wondering if the effect is just that you are blowing the bp fouling out with the smokeless, or if you are literally combusting the bp fouling.
Thanks for the interesting thread.
Best regards,
DrB
Last edited by DrB; 04-07-2012 at 02:40 PM.
And that is what this is supposed to be all about and it isn't important enough to get side ways with each other over it. Like I said, if it ain't fun, I ain't doing it and firing a shot, moving to the left or right out of the smoke and then being able to see and hear that big bullet smack that ram out there at 500 meters is a HOOT!all in all im just havin a ball with all this paperin the boolits and the dandy duplex loading. cant wait for the next days off to play further with em.
Most of the time all I see is smiles and grins up and down the firing line because most of the shooters at River Bend where I shoot are old farts, retired, and we ain't trying to be the next national champion shooter. We are just happy when we can actually see our dang sights and swap war stories with each other.
But turkel bird season is open here now and these boys will LIE to you about where they are hunting and they'll LIE to you about where the best fishing holes are. I guess there are some things we jiss ain't gonna tell our buddies about.
And for any of yawl who might wanna know where I'm seeing a lot of turkels, I'll tell ya. It's out thar in them woods.
Last edited by Black Prince; 04-07-2012 at 12:59 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
It is said that white powderdoes not bump up lead while black powder does, yet we worry about riveting causing high pressure. Riveting taking place inside the case if the boolit is seated too deep as well as riveting between the case mouth and chamber end.
It's true that BP ignites very fast and will almost explode unconfined. WP needs containment and pressure to burn fast. Someone eventually produced a pressure curve chart showing a BP pressure curve. It has an initial rise faster than white but not has high. What about pistol powders? I have it cast in lead that pistol powders bumps up lead. I did a test - see my thread; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=149949
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
guess i must have rattled that poor fella pretty good as he even took the time to write me a personal dig in the private messages section...hope he
For the sake of others on here..He is lieing...I never sent him any personal dig thru the private message.......No way......I polyjice if I offended anyone..There was none intended....
ok i have done my part...i reported this imbasil so now we will see where it goes from here...im done with this!
I would like to see a copy of the private message I sent to you..I went back through mine and found nothing..If I had of I would admit to it...So lets see a copy of it...Please
It is all my fault.
I sent a private message to bigted titled catkiller45.
I accept full responsibility for bigted mistakenly thinking I was talking about him.
My deepest and most sincere apologize to Ted.
Gentlemen...My 2 cents.
This forum is for sharing Knowledge and answering questions so we as shooters can be the best we can be with what we decide to work with. While the original question may have gone off on side trails , some things mentioned were relevant since there are variables in the equation as Black Prince pointed out. Calling names (rule Violation) has never been and will never be productive. It makes the person lose credibilty and shows a lack of maturity as an adult. We are a community of Shooters and as such we need to remember this is the internet and we are all different from all walks of life. If someone wants to learn or has questions, answer them if you can and check your attitude at the door. There is No Need for it here as it does nothing for the group and the other members who READ your posts.
PLEASE THINK BEFORE YOU POST !!!
Treat others like you want to be treated...Fair and with respect. Period
( AS a BP shooter I am enjoying the info I have gained just from this one thread alone.)
Rich
You Know You Might Be Facing your DOOM , if all you get is a click, Instead of a BOOM !
If God had wanted us to have Plastic gun stocks he would have planted plastic Trees !
Rich,
For what it may be worth..I think one of the biggest problems on these forums is the fact that when some read the post they are not reading all of it and take it the wrong way..I have done it myself and then go back and read it again and it has a whole new meaning...I am sorry if I caused a problem.I didn't do it with intent....But it really upset me when he said I sent a post and I knew I had not....So you see there again is an example of NOT READING the whole thing........
You know Moose, it is difficult to try to discuss a technical subject when some people in the discussion simply don't have the background to understand. Shooting (ballastics) is all about physics, math, chemistry and some voodoo thown in. Some of us are more adept with the field of ballastics than others and some of us have more trigger time than some of the others have been alive. That makes a BIG difference in what we know and how we think and communicate. When we try to communicate what we know to those who don't know and who doubts what we say, we run into problems and that can lead to misunderstandings.
I am absolutely amazed at some of the questions asked around here. There are books written about the things some people ask. My question (BUT I NEVER ask it because I don't want to piss off anyone) is why in the hell haven't you read the dam book? If it is important enough for you to come here and ask the question, why isn't it important enough for you to plug it into GOOGLE or go to the public library and look it up? It makes me think some of these guys are just plain LAZY. But then I TRY to adjust my attitude and explain it so they can understand and sometimes I just can't do it. They cannot understand what I say or they don't believe it. I don't have any patience with that and sometimes it shows despite everything I can do to not show it.
People had patience with me when I first started reloading and casting bullets back in 1958, but I LISTENED to them and did not question what they said like some of these guys do. My question to those kinds of people is if you know the answer, why did you ask the question? And if you didn't want to hear what I said, what are you doing here? But I DON'T DO THAT because it isn't good manners.
This Internet has made it too easy to get information and it has made a lot of people just plain LAZY. I had to scratch, claw, beg and just TRY DOING IT for information back when I got started and I ended up with a fairly large LIBRARY of books and my own carefully kept journals and log books as a result of trying to LEARN about this stuff. And yes. I did make a lot of mistakes, but that was the only way I had to learn. But now all some people think they need to do is come here and ask their question. I don't mind trying to help people especially when I see they are trying and testing loads, but when some joker who has never tried it says he doubts it, it's enough to cause a fella to just go to the range and shoot and not even try to help anymore.
So without trying to ruffle any feathers, it would HELP if some of you boys would at least TRY to look in commonally available resources for the answer, or at least be aquainted with some of the answer BEFORE you wander in here and just want us too spoon feed you. While we will help you if we can, we can't do it if you are not willing to help yourself and some of you are so dam lazy you are never going to try it anyway. We are NOT your momma and we didn't take you to raise. If you expect us to try to help you, we expect you to listen and then try it BEFORE you tell us what we have been doing for the last 54 years will not work, ESPECIALLY when there are books written on it showing you how to do it.
Okay. I'm off the soap box now. But dang it, SOMEBODY needed to say that.
Last edited by Black Prince; 04-08-2012 at 07:57 PM.
The America I love was when the engine was a V-8, the exhausts were dual, the shift was four on the floor, the white walls were wide, the chrome was thick, the women were straight, and there was no such thing as the as the EPA.
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