Safariland speedloaders: I don't get it

[Wheeler]

Safariland loaders require the loader and rounds be aligned with the cylinders. The HKS due to the amount of slop does not. While it ht be easier to fudge the HKS I have never felt like it was faster. At one time I could accomplished a 1.5 second shot to shot reload using Safariland Comp 2's,a split six speedloader holder and a 686 from concealment. While not nearly that fast I can still perform a sub three second reload using the same equipment.
Perception of speed is not the same as speed. I would recommend the use of a shot timer to check actual performance.

[Larry Gibson]

I would recommend the use of a shot timer to check actual performance.

That's how it was done. However, the shot timer measures from last shot, reload and then next shot. So you have re aiming and trigger time in there too. I also was just about as fast with the Safariland if all went well and they lined up right. If they don't line up right initially they can be quite a bit slower than the HKS. As I stated I was down to right at a 1 second reload with the HKS and my M15 when I was at the top of my game.

One other plus to the HKS in a tactical situation is if dropped sometimes the rounds all pop out of the Safariland. Also if carried loose in a pocket, jacket or pants, and the button gets pushed (as in sitting in a car/PU....been there had it happen too many times) the rounds all pop out too. They won't with the HKS.

I still have the 2 origianl Safariland I got for my M15 and still use them occasionally. I have HKS speed loaders for the S&W M31, M15/M19, the Ruger Security Six, S&W M57/M58 andn my Colt .44 Anaconda if that tells you anything of my preference.

Larry Gibson

[Wheeler]

Larry,

I've been carring a revolver in one form or another for around 12 years now. I have never had the rounds come loose from a dropped Safariland, wether dropped or in my pocket. I've seen that happen with the HKS and the Dades but never with the Safariland.

I have HKS for most of my revolvers only because I can't find them in a Safariland. For instance, my M-28, M-16, M-30 Safariland either doesn't make or stopped making them.

In regards to using a shot timer, reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot should not really be that much of an issue on static targets, which is how my times were measured. That's the only way I know of to consistently and accurately measure reload times.

Best Regards,
Wheeler

[Larry Gibson]

Wheeler

I've been carring a revolver in one form or another for around 12 years now. I have never had the rounds come loose from a dropped Safariland, wether dropped or in my pocket. I've seen that happen with the HKS and the Dades but never with the Safariland.

Most often happens in a pocket with keys or other objects that press the release button. Also I was an Advanced Firearms Instructor for a state and spent lots of time on ranges with officers (recruits to very experienced) using all of those speed loaders. You'd be surprised at how many got dropped under pressure of "qualification" or during a local PPC/TRC match. Saw them all lose rounds with the Dades being the most common, Safariland next. Never saw an HKS lose rounds when dropped. Saw rounds lost when the knob was turned on the pouch on extraction and when turned before rounds were in the chamber. All in all the HKS gave the best cartridge retainment and quickness of reloading, probably not by a lot but by a noticeable amount at least.

I have HKS for most of my revolvers only because I can't find them in a Safariland. For instance, my M-28, M-16, M-30 Safariland either doesn't make or stopped making them.

You'll note I have both HKS abd Safariland. I never said the HKS was "better", just said the HKS was "faster", which it is for me. No real argument here as I never told anyone to get rid of the Safarilands and get HKS. I let the Dades misperformance speak for themselves.

In regards to using a shot timer, reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot should not really be that much of an issue on static targets, which is how my times were measured. That's the only way I know of to consistently and accurately measure reload times.

None the less, the shot timer still measures " reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot" which regarless of it not being" much of an issue on static targets" it is still an "issue" and doesn't measure just the reload time. Size of the target, shape of the target and distance to the target will all influence the amount of time taken that is not part of the reload time.

Perhaps because you "can't find them in a Safariland" might tell you which has been the most accepted, made for most all revolvers and have been readily available for 35-40+ years. Probably a good reason for that

Larry Gibson

[Green Frog]

Ok, Larry, on your recommendation, when I see my HKS buddy, I'll be getting a Model 30 for my .32 HE Snubbie and a Model 36 for my Baby Chief. I promise to work with them longer this time before I give up. More money to spend... I hope you're satisfied!

BTW, have you had much experience with the 5-Star speedloaders? They appear to me to be nothing but aluminum versions of the HKS from their spec sheet.

Froggie

[bobthenailer]

Been using safarilands COMP 1-2 3 models in various s&w revolvers for about 20 years in matches with no problems.

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, Larry, on your recommendation, when I see my HKS buddy, I'll be getting a Model 30 for my .32 HE Snubbie and a Model 36 for my Baby Chief. I promise to work with them longer this time before I give up. More money to spend... I hope you're satisfied!

BTW, have you had much experience with the 5-Star speedloaders? They appear to me to be nothing but aluminum versions of the HKS from their spec sheet.

Froggie

Well I've got 2-3+ each for my M31, M15, M19, Security Six, M57/58 (If I ever get another...kept the HKS speed loaders just in case), Colt Anaconda and for my M1917 in .45 AR.........know what you mean about "more money"

No experience with the 5 - Star's, just seen a couple in gunshops is all.

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

I started out with HKS twist the knob type speedloaders and wasn't overly in love with them. I bought HKS Jet Loaders I think they were called. They worked well and I was happy with them. When the Safariland ones came out, I bought them (shiny object syndrome). Also happy with them and can't say I ever had a problem.

At work I was in the Transport Unit escorting prisoners and we carried spare rounds. As I am short a finger (well an inch or so on the end of it), I managed to convince my bosses to let me carry the spares in a Speedloader and I used one of my HKS Jetloaders without incident. I had a fumble on the range one weekend and sent my rounds everywhere. Considering this, I went back to the old twist the knob HKS Speedloader on my duty belt.

Reading this it occurs to me that I haven't used the speedloaders for many years and I can't picture what is happening. I will have to dig them out and have a play with them.

I had to relieve the wood on the grips to make the loaders useable (the standard Model 10 grips were fine).

If I was back on teh job and was carrying my revolver again and had my choice, I'd be carrying 2-3 Old style HKS loaders and a strip loader on the back of my belt for the really deep doo doo times.

I'd really rather be carrying a Glock or a 1911 with a few spare mags though. I love my wheelguns, but for serious encounters I would prefer a powerful auto.

[Larry Gibson]

Been using safarilands COMP 1-2 3 models in various s&w revolvers for about 20 years in matches with no problems.

No argument there at all. As I've said the Safariland can and do work very well, especially at matches by those who are practiced with them, especially the Comp IIIs. However, match shooters take care of their equipment; they don't carry speedloaders in pants pockets (cargo type), jacket pockets, they don't get thrown around or banged around, they are kept clean and don't accumilate dirt, debri etc., they aren't carried on duty belts in fights, squashed by steering wheels, seat belts or other equipment. They aren't dropped because most match shooters have better control than duty officers who are being shot at which should be the case if a reload is needed. Lastly competition speed loaders are well maintained, cleaned and inspected before, during and after use/matches. If you've ever inspected the duty guns of many police officers let alone speed loaders or even ammo in belt loops you would be amazed at what you'd find. Sad to say I've even found some HKS speedloaders in pretty poor condition.

All I said was the HKS were quicker for me to use, quicker and simpliar for most others to use and that is probably why they are the most popular. The majority of speedloaders I have are HKS and when I get new ones they are HKS. However, I'm not giving up my Safariland IIs because they work well for what I now use them for.

Larry Gibson

[Wheeler]

Wheeler


None the less, the shot timer still measures " reacquiring the sights and breaking the next shot" which regarless of it not being" much of an issue on static targets" it is still an "issue" and doesn't measure just the reload time. Size of the target, shape of the target and distance to the target will all influence the amount of time taken that is not part of the reload time.

I'm always looking for ways to improve myself and my performance. How do you measure reload times in a consistent and accurate manner that takes out the element of human error?

Perhaps because you "can't find them in a Safariland" might tell you which has been the most accepted, made for most all revolvers and have been readily available for 35-40+ years. Probably a good reason for that



Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I'm always looking for ways to improve myself and my performance. How do you measure reload times in a consistent and accurate manner that takes out the element of human error?


"Back in the day" before electronic timers we used stop watches. Many were very proficient, especially after a week end shoot worth of “timing”. When testing such we usually had 2 or 3 “timing” and then averaged the times. Usually they were within a couple tenths of a second of each other if that. We had a few heated discussions back then on the “shot to shot” start/stop method and decided against it because of the additional variables (mentioned in previous post) added between when the gun was actually reloaded and another shot was fired. So to simply to test reload time we came up with; start was at the firing of a round which signified “gun empty” and stopped at the “clack” of the cylinder closing as at that time the reload was complete. Just the way we did it back then to measure “reload” time only. Measuring shot to shot would probably be a good index if the target was the same size and distance and there was a accuracy requirement (A zone hit) every time a measurement was taken. Otherwise the variable of target acquisition and firing time would probably make any comparisons of different times questionable. You’d still have to take in the individual reaction time past the actual reload completion involving reacquiring a good grip, good position, target acquisition, sight alignment/picture and trigger pull times.

Both methods induce a certain amount of "human error" but we felt that 2-3 timers probably reduced it as much as possible. That's just what a bunch of us came up with a long time ago. None of us are competting or pounding the bricks anymore so for us it is a moot point. I've no qualms with any way anyone else wants to measure reload time with speedloaders or with a spare mag, just telling the whys and the hows of the way we did it. It worked for us and was pretty consistent.

Larry Gibson

[Wheeler]

I suppose that would work quite well if you have a large enough group and the stopwatches. Thanks for the info.

[Larry Gibson]

Stopwatches were plentiful on ranges back then prior to "chrono" watches and timers. Times change and the timer technology has certainly made for much more precise timing of speed events. I remember some pretty healthy arguments at IPSC matches from the "gamesmen" back then over who did what how fast........The timers have pretty much eliminated that, which is a good thing.

BTW; we also had a ballistic pendelum to measure major/minor before the advent of readily available chronographs.....am I painting a dinasoar picture of myself or what.........

Larry Gibson