Primer choice for Smith Model 19

[DrCaveman]

Hello. I think this is the best place within this forum for this topic, but please correct me if there is a better spot. This is not "cast boolit" related, per se, but I respect the wisdom of members here and would appreciate some insight.

I began reloading using CCI primers, as those were the most common in my reloading data, and they worked pretty well for my 45 ACP (CZ 97). I have had about 3 FTF out of maybe 3000 rounds, and am OK...but not thrilled... with that performance.

I began reloading 38 spl & 357 after acquiring a Smith model 19-3 w/ 4" barrel, not sure of any hammer adjustment. I experienced 2 duds within my first 50 reloads using CCI small pistol primers. I went ahead and tried Federal small pistol primers and have not had a single dud since (nor any primer detonation in my reloading area). Several stuck bullets, but I blame that on...myself.

My question is: what other primers have similar sensitivities to the Federal? I am stuck with Cabelas and one other gun shop waay across town for the Federals, but CCI & Winchester are available (at better prices) in many more locations. I am specifically referring to BiMart, familiar to Oregonians. I could of course buy 100 and try them out, but I would rather get some feedback from others who use Winchester. A have also noticed that quite a few of my reloading manuals have used Win primers, and it would be nice to at least occasionally be able to follow published loads verbatim.

Since buying a GP100, I now have my "Ruger loads" and my "Smith loads" even though nothing differs except the primers (except of course, my smokin' 357 mag loads that I dont want to hurt my pretty nickel M19). The GP does not seem to care what primer I use.

I was told by a long-time reloading elder that Feds are the best for Smith revolvers. Is there much debate here, or is this the consensus?

[shooting on a shoestring]

Drc...I doubt its a primer issue. Model 19s have a flat mainspring that is tensioned by a screw in the front side of the grip frame about an inch up from the butt. I'll bet yours has worked a little loose. Find that screw and tighten it till it feels just seated. If it takes a turn or two, you just solved your problem. If that screw is already tensioned, give it a good cleaning/lubing and start shopping for a new main spring.

I've had a cherished Model 19 for years. Pops every primer every time...if the main spring is tensioned.

Some folks back the tension off trying to get a lighter action, and they get lighter hammer falls.

[FN in MT]

I made the move to Winchester primers several yrs back as I can get them at a FAR better price point than anything else. Previously I had used CCI almost excluvively.

I found that HARD priming issues with .45 acp brass was now a thing of the past. I had assumed my Dillon 550 was having issues with military primer pockets. For some reason the Winchesters seat easier in about everything. ???

Another friend who rloads many thousands of rds each year mentioned he was happier with Winchesters as well. And that he had experienced fewer fails to fire vs CCI.

Hardly a definitive TEST...but at $21 per thousand I'll stick to WW's.

I've been a S&W revolver shooter and collector for 40+ years. I've NEVER heard anything about one primer being better/worse when it comes to factory spec S&W revolvers.

For TUNED revolves suffering from light hammer strikes...then I'm sure one make of primer has to be eaiser to pop. I don't tune the DA down to those levels.

FN in MT

[DrCaveman]

I bought the gun used, last summer. It absolutely had the cleanest breaking trigger of any revolver I had looked at...maybe the best on any firearm I had ever fired. I didn't want to mess with success... Until the failures to fire.

Truth be told I can shoot almost as accurately with the gp100, whose trigger doesn't 'seem' nearly as nice. Maybe I am placing value in the wrong place.

In any case, I'll check that screw and get back to you. I won't get a chance to test it with CCI primers til this weekend, but I am trusting that you guys are right. This is great news!

Now that I have some M19 fans in my reach, what is your take on the 1-10 ratio of magnum loads to 38 spl? I do not want to beat up this sweet, nimble piece of firearm history, but magnum loads are so satisfying! I still would probably abide by about 1-5 ratio, if left to my own devices, but I would love to hear about some road-experience in the matter. People have their opinions on this matter, out the wazoo, but I am not sure how many of these people have actually put 5000 rds of 158 gr lswc in front of 14 gr 2400 through their guns.

Thanks!

[454PB]

The same thing happened to me with my model 28 many years ago. I caused it myself by reduce the hammer spring tension as shooting on a shoestring mentioned. I had to return the tension to "full", and all the misfires went away.

[shooting on a shoestring]

First, I got my Model 19 when I was in Junior High in the 70s. It fired almost an exclusive diet of .38s. Usually 3.3 grs BE under 358156 w/o GCs. I didn't have but a handful of .357 brass and a small budget.

Now days I have several Ruger revolvers that shoot my heavy loads. I do load .357 brass by the coffee can for my Model 19, but I stay with 148 to 160 gr boolits and mostly 1100 fps loads. Pretty light compared to what I'll put through a Blackhawk or GP100.

The biggest killer of Model 19s was 125 jacketed pushed near the top. The light bullets would hit the forcing cone very fast, and if you'll look, there is a flat milled out of the outside of the forcing cone to allow clearance for the crane. Thats where the forcing cones would crack. Stay away from hot 125s and you'll be fine. I don't worry about cracking a forcing cone with any level of power under a 158 or heavier boolit. I just don't need to stretch the frame with a steady diet of heavy loads.

I don't keep track of how many hot loads, I just don't shoot them in that revovler anymore, thats why I got Rugers. The Smith has a super trigger, hits very well, doesn't need to run with its tongue hanging out.

[Old Caster]

DrCaveman,
It is impossible to give a difinitive answer other than the Federal Primers always work and are never too hard to shoot in a light hiting revolver. I have done a lot of work lightening Smith revolvers as light as possible and if you want consistancy go Federal. I went through a full 5000 of Winchester and a full case of CCI without fail only to have the next batch of each give me problems and the CCI is the worst. I constantly read write ups from CCI people that say that they are just as easy to set off with a revolver as the Federal but the proof is in the pudding.
Every IDPA guy I know that shoots a revolver uses Federal. Another thing I have a problem with is the claim that a Federal primer will explode while seating in a case if it is tight like a military crimped pocket. I have had countless numbers of primers wind up sideways and get crushed without incident and primers upside down whereas I just deprime it again and turn it over and keep going. Sometimes a military case gets into the mix and I have to seat it as hard as I can so it will advance. I then look at it to see if it was sideways or was just tight. If it is just tight and has filled the hole without being in crooked I shoot it or otherwise I deprime throw it away and fix the pocket. I have never had a primer go off accidently and wonder how someone might do it. What more could someone do to make it happen. In 55 years you would think it would have happened if it were possible. -- Bill --

[DrCaveman]

Shoestring, that is also why I got the gp100. I'll probably just stick with the routine...load up 100 or so magnum loads, try out a dozen with the ruger, if all looks good, shhot a dozen through the m19 for practice/familiarity. Then shoot the rest through the ruger. Then 300 38s split between the two guns.

I always look at the flat part of the forcing cone after each 'first' magnum shot. Looks good so far but I will be very upset with myself it cracks. Stay away from 125 magnum loads, I will.

My nightstand bullets are 38 +p 125 sp. I have shot a fair number of those through the m19... No issue, right? The velocity may be fairly high, but pressures can't be above 21000 or so, I think.

Old caster, I am glad to hear of your success rate with primers, it is encouraging. Maybe I will just stock up on the Feds, they seem to work fine in all my guns, no modifications required.

[44man]

Accuracy death is too light a hammer spring. ALL primers should fire!
Primers must be hit a lot harder then just going off so if CCI primers fail, the gun is failing and you will not get out of it what it can really do.
I shake my head over needing Fed primers even though I use them all the time. I put OVER POWER springs in all of my revolvers for accuracy.
I have had S&W's here that had the strain screws filed off that would not fire. All an attempt to lighten the trigger which is wrong.
Even some hammer springs from the factory are junk, too light with an attempt to lighten a double action trigger.
Chances are good that if the first batch of CCI's fired and the next gives trouble, the spring is shot and took a set or the strain screw is loose. S&W springs through the whole gun are absolute minimum to start with.

[fourarmed]

Smiths that have been tuned for light DA pulls often have this trouble. Federal works best, with WW a fairly close second. My M19 has the rebound slide spring lightened a little, but the hammer spring is full power. It works with anything, and is very accurate.

[Thin Man]

DrC,

Without knowing the history of your particular revolver, your FTF problem could be with either the firearm or the primers. Since the problem was resolved by a change of primers, let's look at the firearm as the possible cause of your FTF's.

Firearm issues, in order of probability, could include:
(1) mainspring tension screw not fully seated in its cavity (gives reduced pressure on the mainspring), (2) nose of the mainspring tension screw has been filed/shaved off to give less pressure on the spring when the screw is fully seated in its cavity, (3) a replaced mainspring (light weight spring in place of the original), (4) excessive headspace between the rear of the cylinder and recoil shield, (5) wear on the hammer nose (giving shorter nose length).

Items #4 and #5 can be ruled out from your reliable fire with other brands of primers.

Locate the mainspring tension screw and turn it in until it stops. Load ammo with CCI primers and retest for FTF. If the screw was already "bottomed out" in its cavity, consider replacing it, and possibly the mainspring as well (only have to pay shipping costs one time this way). Replacing these parts will ensure you have full hammer fall strength. These parts are readily available for modest price from the usual suspects - Brownell's, Numrich and many others. Get NEW parts, save the hassle of adopting tired used parts when new replacements are available.

The 19s are some of the most popular of the S&W line. Take care of yours and you'll enjoy it for many years.

Thin Man

[runfiverun]

different primers do have different cup thicknesses.
federals seem to be the softest, and i have HAD a gun or two that would only reliably fire them.
unfortunately the cci 300 is a good primer and i have had good results with it.
i mainly have winchester primers around here and a couple of others for some specialty loads.
but if you can't get the ONE primer that works,or they change it, then what are you going to do?
federal now owns cci who's gonna say that federal isn't gonna change over and just re-box cci's in the future?
get what works and stock up on them,or fix the gun.

[DrCaveman]

Thin Man & Shoestring

I am disappointed to report that the mainspring tension screw on my M19 was fully tight. It also appears to be unaltered/unworn, as the end of the screw is very clean, with some very light lathe or machining marks, as best I can tell. If it was altered, someone did a damn good job!

I guess I will go the route of buying a new screw and mainspring. Brownells shows me nothing for M19 mainspring screw. Mainspring screw is not synonymous with "strain screw" is it? I am finding the mainspring itself, just no screw. I will search elsewhere, but if you have a definite source I would much appreciate it. I think maybe I dont need the screw... but it cant cost more than a few bucks, and couldnt hurt. Worst case I take it back out and am out a few bucks.

Thanks for the input. I look forward to testing and reporting on the findings!

[Old Caster]

Dr Caveman,
If someone has shortened your hammer spring and you don't want to get another until you know what is happening, take an empty primer and knock out the anvil and place it between the spring and the screw. That will give you a few thousandths more length and it won't fall out.
When I tune a revolver I never shorten the screw. That doesn't work well and is an amateur way of doing it. All things that rub must be polished inside and some coils can be taken off the trigger return spring (usually 2). Too much and it won't reset and is also related to how strong the hammer spring is. They work together. I grind the sides and then polish the hammer spring and can get the double action down to about 7 pounds and still have reliability but it is necessary for the gun to have a target hammer for the extra weigt. If the hammer is regular and bobbed, it makes a big difference in how light it can be tuned and still be reliable. My experiences with primers getting light hits are based on four different revolvers so old springs aren't an issue and even if someone insists it is, Federal primers fix the problem.-- Bill --

[MtGun44]

Probably has the hammer tension spring backed off, like they have said. Screw it back
in all the way. Some have the screw cut short, check to see that it is full length.

Bill

[DrCaveman]

I took off the side plate and did a basic strip on the gun. Things were pretty dirty in there... not terrible, but worse than I expected. I gave each part a good cleaning and light lubing. Now, things are back together, mainspring tension screw DEFINITELY tight. I am gonna try shooting CCI primer as-is, and see if cleaning helped anything. If I get a dud then I will try Old Caster's suggestion of using a spent primer case as a shim to effectively lengthen the screw.

Here's hoping. In any case I will also try out some WW primers, I like to hear that they are "middle ground". I have no need for any "extreme" primers at this point. Just give me some that go pop in every gun, and light all the powder.

[Thin Man]

DrC,
Brownell's will have both the mainspring and strain screw for your project. Rather than learning their website and working to navigate through it, call them. Their number is 800-741-0015, ask for technical support. The staff at Brownell's are THE most knowledgable, courteous and helpful you will find in the industry. Be sure to read the complete model designation (19-2, or 19-7, or...) of your revolver inside the frame flat where the yoke closes so you can share this with their tech. Tell them what you need, and they will start it your way same day. Good luck.
Thin Man

[Old Caster]

DrCaveman,
It is also possible that the wrong screw is in your gun. Sometimes people will grind off the screw and have failures so they get another screw that fits the hole but all of the models have different lengths so it may be the wrong length. If the main hammer spring was worked on, it would be obvious because the original is a stamped item. It is also possible to buy weakened mainsprings that look different than original but if you have nothing to compare with it would be hard to know but they are slick while the original looks a bit rough around the edges. -- Bill --

[Larry Gibson]

Probably has the hammer tension spring backed off, like they have said. Screw it back
in all the way. Some have the screw cut short, check to see that it is full length.

Bill

+1....this is usually the cause of misfires with K frame S&Ws.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

Shortened strain screws--clipped rebound slide springs--and Wolff (or other) aftermarket mainsprings were popular hack job gunsmithing kinks to cheaply lighten trigger pulls on S&W revolvers back in the day when revolvers reigned supreme as service sidearms for LEOs. You may have been saddled with such an example. Properly regulated K-frame revolvers should fully ignite all makes of small pistol primers, both regular strength and magnum. And YES, the "strain screw" is the proper name for that screw you are dealing with.

As for Magnum ammo working undue stress on the Model 19 or 66 mechanisms......current SAAMI spec 357 Magnum ammo loaded to 36K CUP likely won't wear the revolvers unduly. Where problems DID occur was with original-intensity 357 Magnum loadings that ran to 42K CUP. Such loads WOULD cause premature wear in K-frame 357 Magnum revolvers if constantly and frequently used. The initial rationale for the Model 19 was as a lighter, more compact service sidearm in a better caliber, to be carried in harm's way with full-snort Magnum loadings but fired primarily with 38 Special loads for practice and training, with scattered Magnum work for familiarization.

The L-frame series of S&W revolvers came out c. 1980 to enable full-time use of full-snort 357 Magnum loadings. These are a mid-point in size between the K-frame (originally intended to house the M&P 38 Special) and the N-frame, a 44 Special frame that easily housed and contained the original 357 Magnum loadings developed by Douglas Wesson--a soul who wasn't afraid to pour powder, let's just say. Your GP-100 is at least as strong as the L- and N-frame S&Ws, so using it as a test bed is good practice. I have a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk in 357 Magnum that gets similar tasking.

Short answer--limit the K-frame to SAAMI-spec ammo, and your grandkids will pass that nickel 19 to their grandkids in good order. I have a M-19 x 2.5" that uses W-W 158 JHP 357 Magnum loads as its street load, and I have a duplicator/practice handload using Lyman #358156 and 13.5 grains of 2400 and WW SP primers in WW brass that serves in both the 19 and a 4" M-686 for training.