Primer choice for Smith Model 19

[DrCaveman]

Larry, do you (or anyone else) know the spec for the factory strain screw length? I have yet to fire the gun after cleaning the internals, but I would appreciate as much information as possible. I kind of consider it the 'ammunition' for that weapon inside my skull.

9.3x62, thanks for the rundown. There is a good chance that the previous owner swapped springs or screws or something. Hopefully this thread will help me get to the bottom of the matter. What the guy behind the counter told me, as I was purchasing this m19 (in favor of a blued 6" m28, same price...shoulda bought both) was that an old fella had come in with a pile of classic smiths for consignment. Not sure what this says about likelihood of trigger lightening, maybe nothing.

[DrCaveman]

One more thing regarding wear & tear: I have opted to shoot a decent number of my Lil Gun loadings through the m19, due to their low pressures. I have, in the same shooting session, opted against shooting my hot 2400 loads in the m19.

Now I hear that Lil Gun runs at higher temps, and often times temp can be the cause of forcing cone erosion & cracking. I thought pressure was king, in terms of gun wear. Thoughts?

The Lil Gun loads absolutely showed no pressure signs in gp100 or m19.

[canyon-ghost]

I've always used Winchester primers, they work well for me. I haven't loaded any cast for the 19-3 that I have, I'm thinking of trading it off. Nice revolvers, though.

[9.3X62AL]

Pressure is indeed "King" when it comes to wear to a revolver mechanism, but heat is at least regent-in-waiting. Sooner or later, all mechanisms get compromised by use--your car, HVAC unit, your sideiron. The key with all is to not be abusive, and to get your money's worth from them while you have them.

90% of my magnum revolver firing gets done with loads using conventional-weight SWCs running 900-1100 FPS. I use Herco to power these loads, because I have lots of it on hand to run my 12- and 28-gauge shotshells. No law requires a gun to be run at firewall levels 100% of the time.

[Bret4207]

I can't say for sure how many thousands of rounds I've put through my M19 over the past 20 some years, but it's a lot. To be honest, I kinda kicked the "louder is better" idea some decades back, so mist of my loads for the 19 are mid range to heavy 38 loads with cast and the traditional powders like Unique, BE, 2400. I think you're doing well to treat your gun with some respect. It will probably outlast you even firing hot 357 loads, but that's what the heavier guns are for IMO.

[crazy mark]

DrC, My 19-3 4" doesn't care what primers I use. I have used Remingtons, CCI, wins, and Federals. Gun show in Eugene in 1 week and Albany this week-end. Mark

[TXGunNut]

Strain screws and springs are cheap and springs get weaker over time and use. Replace them if there's any doubt, it's just normal maintenance. A light hammer fall is detrimental to accuracy as well. I switched over to WW primers from CCI more than a few years ago and used hundreds of thousands of them in PPC competition (with smooth, light actions) with very few failures, very likely less than a dozen over the years. Federals are just as good, maybe better. I hear CCI's have gotten better but with that high a failure rate I'm betting it's a mechanical issue.

[Larry Gibson]

DrCaveman

Larry, do you (or anyone else) know the spec for the factory strain screw length? I have yet to fire the gun after cleaning the internals, but I would appreciate as much information as possible. I kind of consider it the 'ammunition' for that weapon inside my skull.

I used to do lots of action jobs on S&Ws. I found that a DA pull of 9 1/2 lbs (dead weight when revolver is lifted) was reliable on all primers including magnum primers. A 10 lb DA on a K frame is pretty much a sure bet. Strain screws were shortened and also the main springs were thinned and lightened many times. Factory strain screws can vary in length so I suggest you measure the DA trigger pull of your revolver with the strain screw turned all the way in;

A small can that can hold 15 lbs of 1 lb ingots is what I use. The ingots are adjusted to 1 lb by drilling the holes so they make weight. A 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 weight are also made. The bail for the can is made from a coat hanger. To use:

Put 9 1lbs in the can

Unhook the bail and insert through the trigger guard of the revovler (please double check to make sure the revovler is unloaded and reinsert into the holes in the can

With the bail over the trigger and the muzzle vrticle slowly lift the revolver so the can is off the floor/bench. The revovler should not fire.

Add 1 lb weights until the revovler fires when lifted.

Remove 1 lb and add the 1/4 lb weight and test.

If it didn't fire remove the 1/4 weight and add the 1/2 lb and test.

Again if it didn't fire then remover the 1/2 lb and add the 3/4 lb and test.

If it didn't fire remove the 3/4 lb and re add a 1 lb and test.

When the revovler will consistently fire (I like to use a minimum of 5 tries) then add the wights and that's the weight of the trigger pull.

Obviously this can be used to test single action pulls with finer weights of lbs and 2 ounces. However, on DA revovlers lightening the DA pull also lightens the SA strike force of the hammer and can cause misfires.

If your revolvers DA trigger is less than 9 1/2 1bs, preferably 10 lbs, then a new strain screw and/or mainspring is in order.


Larry Gibson

[jdgabbard]

I can't tell you mechanically if there is anything with your revolver. I'm not there to inspect... But I can give some insight to my own issues with my k-frame 357...

I have a model 65, and like you I was suffering from FTFs with CCI primers. Now my 65 had a fairly light trigger pull, and after inspecting it, I didn't have a problem with a loose spring. The spring may simply have been worn out, and just didn't have the strength that it once did. Accuracy with my loads was a none issue, so I don't think that variances in ignition were an issue with my go to load (158g SWC over 4.0g Unique).

After posting on here, I was advised that CCI primers do have a harder cup than other brands. It was suggested that I try Winchester or Federal. I opted to go for winchester, and I stopped having any issues what-so-ever with FTFs. After a bit more time I started trying the Wolf primers. Both Wolf and Winchester both use brass cups, and after quite a bit of shooting with the Wolf primers I determined that as far as accuracy and reliability the two were equals. I now use exclusively wolf (I have probably 10k small pistol stocked up).

The result was that while I may have a worn hammer spring, I still maintain a smooth and light trigger pull that doesn't seem to get worse with time. And I have an accurate load, that also benefits from using a pretty moderately priced primer (wolfs tend to run a little less then WW).

This was a good solution to the problem for me, however, it may not be for you. At the end of the day, the best solution is one that you're most happy with.

[hedgehorn]

I have always used winchesters in my Model 19 without a hitch. How do you like that CZ97? I have a CZ97BD that is a fine weapon. It took allot of shooting before it broke in. Now it feeds wonderfully and is very accurate.

[DrCaveman]

Hedge horn, thanks for the Winchester advice. How have your results been with CCI?

I like the CZ97 quite a bit, and it occupied my 'favorite gun' status for the first 6 months I owned it. Then I bought the m19, got into revolvers, then just recently, casting, and I am a revolver lover. Honestly I have to remind myself to bring the cz97 out shooting, the revolvers have become so much my focus.

That being said, I have had pretty dang good success reloading the laser cast 230 gr rn for the cz97. Absolutely as accurate and clean-feeding as the jax that I would pay $20/100 for. Paid $60 for 500 of these. I have not shot many of my 230 softball MBC boolits but the ones I have shot were great, seemed equivalent to the LC.

I stretched some hogue cz75 grips onto the gun (major pain in the a$$!) but I do like the ergonomics much more now. I still find myself rusty through the first few mags if I have taken a long break (2-3 months) from shooting it. Then things get better and I can hit 4" at 25 yds. I don't do any better than that, consistently, with any handgun so I'm happy.

[hedgehorn]

The only cci primers I have used are magnum primers and no issues. I have had good luck with my CZ feeding the H-G 68 clone swc. The Lee 452-230-2R feeds well too. The CZ97 is my favorite double action 45

[Shooter6br]

I use Fed primers Had misfires in Mod 25-2 Also my 41 mag 657 which NEVER misfired in 20 yrs of use( with Winchester primers)

[MBTcustom]

I have to give my 2 cents worth.
I agree with everything Larry Gibson said. You go below 9 Lbs and you start having problems......sometimes. That's a scary word when dealing with handguns.
If I were you, I would order up a Wolf spring kit from MidwayUSA or Brownells. Also, get a new strain screw from Numrich gun parts. Put everything back together and run that lead hose.
A word of caution, when you remove the side plate on your revolver, be sure to do it the right way. Many a revolver has been ruined by some yaywho that thinks you pry that sucker out with a screwdriver.
Take the screws out and use a 1" X 2" X 12" piece of soft pine to rap lightly on the side of the grip frame. The side plate will pop right out and you can then access the internals of your pistol.
I always use federal primers because they are the best and only cost a little more than all the other brands.
A great load for that pistol is a 200 grain boolit, loaded hot in a 38 special case. Exceedingly accurate and hard hitting. I can cover a bowling pin @ 65 yards every time with that load. Good times.
My favorite S&W is the mod27 but I actually own a 19-2. I have clipped the springs, shortened the strain screw, and stoned out the internals very carefully. Shooting it is like pouring mercury over a sheet of greased teflon. The trick with any of that stuff is knowing where to stop, you go a little too far and you have ruined the gun. Fortunately, I haven't lost one yet, and the good news is that if all you do is monkey with the springs, then its an easy thing to replace. You screw up the sear engagement and you will learn new ways to cuss while you figure out once and for all the right way to do it.

[Dan Cash]

One thing I have not seen mentiond is to ensure your primers are absolutely fully seated. If the primer is not fully bottomed in the primer pocket, you will certainly have missfires with a Smith. As far as DA trigger pull on a Smith, the solution is in the angle and smoothness of the hammer and trigger components. If they fit, a ten pound pull can feel like five.

[DrCaveman]

Goodsteel- I have a Lyman 358430 mold on the way. Do you have any load recc's for 38 spl? I am also looking for some good full-house 357 mag loads. The manuals are pretty lacking in load listings at that weight, they seem to use it more for rifle loads.

I was planning to start with 2400 and 4227 with a substantial down charge from 158-180 gr loads... Prob 9 gr & 11 gr respectively. Also Lil Gun at around 13 gr.

These are just initial thoughts. I would appreciate any experience with the 195-200 gr and these powders. Thanks

[Irascible]

Cowboy action shooters lighten their hammer springs way up. 90% (or so) of them use Federals as they have the softest cup. When RCBS came out with their strip priming system they asked you to use CCI to avoid accidental firings as they had the hardest cup. I find Remingtons almost as soft as Federals. I haven't used any others.

[Char-Gar]

CCI primers are notorious for being the hardest on the market and will be the first ones to not fire if the hammer strike is light. The test for a good trigger job is if the sixgun will fire off CCI primers 100% in fast DA shooting.

CCI are good primers, but they are tough. Federal, Winchester and Remington are easier to set off, but I fix any sixgun would will not give 100% reliable ignition with any make of primer. I place reliability over other considerations in a sixgun.

There was a time when I monkeyed with the springs and strain screw of Smith DA sixguns, but grew out of that after about 30 years of doing so. Just use factory parts and shoot the thing. Over time it will become buttery smooth and still be reliable. A sixgun with messed with springs, may be OK for a time, but with wear will become marginal and then roll snake eyes.Been there, done that on many occasions. I am a slow learner, but sooner or later I will break the code.

[9.3X62AL]

I have LOTS of experience with Lyman #358430, the 195 grain version. There was in earlier days a shorter 150 grain version of this boolit, FYI. One less drive band, I think.

In 357 Magnum, my FAVORITE load is found in the Winchester Components Catalog (c) 1999. It consists of 12.4 grains of WW-296, and I use CCI 550 (small pistol magnum) primers in place of the impossible-to-find Winchester SPM caps. Pressure is given in the Catalog as being 35K CUP, just within current SAAMI specs. In my several 357 Magnums, this load produces no sticky extraction--cases often fall free when the barrel is pointed skyward with the cylinder open, actually. In the 4" 686, velocities run in the 1075-1100 FPS ballpark. This catalog shows no data for this boolit weight in 38 Special, standard or +P.

The Alliant Powder Reloader's Guide (c) 1996 shows data for a 200 grain lead boolit in 38 Special standard pressure, 38 Special +P, and 357 Magnum. A number of powders are listed therein, but I'll list the 2400 data since you mentioned that fuel.

38 Special standard--7.0 grains, yielding 870 FPS from a 5.6" barrel, 15,800 psi, Fed 100 primers.

38 Special +P--7.1 grains, yielding 890 FPS and 17,500 psi, same primer. (Izzit just me, or does that seem a little quirky and spastic?) Both loads show 1.540 OAL.

357 Magnum--10.0 grains, yielding 1,245 FPS and 32,800 psi, Fed 200 primer. OAL 1.575".

This last load I've used a lot of. In my Ruger Bishawk x 7.5", it keeps pace with the WW-296 load, about 1200-1225 FPS.

The #358430 is ONE ACCURATE BOOLIT. When fired at 38 Special speeds, it tends to tumble in small game, anchoring them DRT. (I've seen this same effect with the 200 grain NEI #169A fired from 38 S&W). At 357 Magnum speeds, the tumbling doesn't seem to onset as readily, but the small critters still go DRT anyway. The round nose of this design may not be the most efficient transmitter of blunt force trauma on earth, but jackrabbits and coyotes hit with these slugs pile up just the same. 200 grains at 1100 FPS won't do anyone or anything any good at all. I've pondered using these in 357 Magnum cast as softpoints for deer hunting--I'm sure on the coyote-sized muleys that infest my deer zones they would be effective with decent placement.

[Char-Gar]

I have never shot the heavy blunt round nose 358430, but so no reason why it should not be a crackerjack bullet. I have shot many thousand of the #358311 which is a 160 grain RN and is probably the most accurate bullet I have fired in the 38/357 pistols. I also have the Hensley and Gibbs version, but can see no real difference in the performance of the H&G or Lyman designs.

Some years ago, Mike V postulated that round nose bullets proved to have superior accuracy because they tended to center themselves up in the bore. I have no reason to believe that is true or not true, but RN bullets have always done very well for me.