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Thread: Shipping outside the US. Seller Warning.

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy

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    Guys,

    The law is pretty straight forward. If the item can be used to make war, and is on the export ban list, it's not legal to ship it without a license. You certainly can get an export license and pay the fee, and deal with the associated reporting, you can refuse to ship OR you can just ignore it and risk getting arrested. Those are your choices.

    Stuff like scopes and optics, rings, laser rangefinders, magazines, gun parts, stripper clips, flash suppressors and just about anthing else related to firearms is definitely included. Proceed at your own risk.

    Pete
    Zbench

  2. #22
    Boolit Master blaser.306's Avatar
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    In a large percent of cases it does not matter what is or is not on "the list" as many members make up the regs as they go along. If anything , a clear cut itemization would be needed to help people make an informed decision . Even large co's have a hard time deciding on what is and is not "exportable"Large major sporting goods suppliers differ greatly on similar if not identical part #'s. And if they with large legal dept's cannot come to a clear answer , how can the average individual! Hopefully the laws can be (if not changed) amended after your next election to at very least exibit a small amount of , wait for it (common sense )!!!

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zbench View Post
    Guys,

    The law is pretty straight forward. If the item can be used to make war, and is on the export ban list, it's not legal to ship it without a license. You certainly can get an export license and pay the fee, and deal with the associated reporting, you can refuse to ship OR you can just ignore it and risk getting arrested. Those are your choices.

    Stuff like scopes and optics, rings, laser rangefinders, magazines, gun parts, stripper clips, flash suppressors and just about anthing else related to firearms is definitely included. Proceed at your own risk.

    Pete
    It can help if you ask brownells for their DDTC list, its a word doc and if the maker of the part is on it, the value is <100$ , and its not a strictly forbidden item (suppressors, flash hiders, frames, cylinders, actions) then it should be okay. Like say a sear from Cylinder & SLide, or a 1911 magazine by Chip McCormick (okay if less than 10 rounds).

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy

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    I like how the people who live abroad and are not US citizens seek to educate those of us who are US citizens on what the law is. If you care, the entire ban list is located here.

    If you read catagory III closely, it spefically talks about everything we use here on Cast Boolits. It does say that this category does not include "hand" reloading equipment. Wether moulds are reloading equipment or rather "Equipment or tooling specifically designed or modified for the articles controlled in this category" is open to debate.

    You will also notice there is NO $100 or less limit. The idea is to not allow things that can make war to leave the country without the appropriate permit. It has nothing to do with taxes or money. So, either educate yourself on the law which is posted above, or just stop commenting on stuff which you have no idea about.

    In case you didn't know, Finland and Canada are foreign countries and subject to the export law requirement.

    Hope this clears it up.

    Pete
    Last edited by Zbench; 03-17-2012 at 07:10 PM.
    Zbench

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zbench View Post
    I like how the people who live abroad and are not US citizens seek to educate those of us who are US citizens on what the law is. If you care, the entire ban list is located here.
    Being a US citizen does not automatically make you more informed on this matter and that's a ridiculous argument to even make.



    If you read catagory III closely, it spefically talks about everything we use here on Cast Boolits. It does say that this category does not include "hand" reloading equipment. Wether moulds are reloading equipment or rather "Equipment or tooling specifically designed or modified for the articles controlled in this category" is open to debate.

    You will also notice there is NO $100 or less limit. The idea is to not allow things that can make war to leave the country without the appropriate permit. It has nothing to do with taxes or money. So, either educate yourself on the law which is posted above, or just stop commenting on stuff which you have no idea about.

    In case you didn't know, Finland and Canada are foreign countries and subject to the export law requirement.

    Hope this clears it up.

    Pete
    ITAR parts always require a permit, I have gone through it before and exported AR-15s from the US successfully. But, you are now talking about apples while I am talking oranges here, so why don't you simmer down a bit?

    The parts I mentioned as examples where not ITAR regulated as little as 6 months ago (if not evident by interpretation of the law, then by precedent, see brownells, numrich, midway). There can be difficulty for a private seller in assessing if a part is ITAR regulated or not however and in that case its best to just leave it be. Brass is certainly a thing you cannot export anymore without a permit for instance as well as the parts on the list you just made.

    Though as I said, magazines with a capacity of less than 10 rounds have not been considered parts for making war, likewise that sear I ordered. I could not order a flash hider though, or a suppressor, or a scope (and some scopes are ITAR, others are not, but even non ITAR scopes require a permit, which is free to acquire though).

    But if you are so certain of your correctness in this matter, maybe you would like to go and ring up Brownells (and Numrich too) and tell them they are violating the law on a daily basis and that their lawyers have gotten this whole thing all wrong. It would appear I and them broke the law a few months ago when I bought a bunch of 8rd magazines for my 1911 from them without any export permits at all.

    http://www.brownells.com/aspx/genera...nal_sales.aspx

    EDIT: If I am wrong then I humbly beg forgiveness
    Last edited by HDS; 03-18-2012 at 06:16 AM.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy

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    HDS,

    The point I am trying to make, is, that the list is whatever our government says it is. It is vague enough that it could be covered, or not covered. As the vast majority of the folks on the board are US Citizens being asked to ship items abroad, and not the other way around, all the RISK in these matters falls to the SHIPPER, not the person receiving the shipment.

    Add to that all this stuff about non-commercial use, under $100, etc which is all bunk, and you can see the problem. To your point, it is not illegal to ship gun parts abroad if you have the proper permit. I'm sure if you are Brownell's, they have the proper permit. That doesn't mean, that just because Brownell's can ship something, it's ok for anyone else to do it.

    My intent in starting this thread was not to split hairs on what was covered, but to alert the masses here that if you just pretend that it's ok, you might get bit. If you get bit, it might have consequences.
    Zbench

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    I am sorry to be pedantic and while I agree with you in the overall scope that it's best for a private seller to not start mucking about with things he is not 100% clear on, I have to keep insisting that the 100 dollar limit actually exists. I do not consider this splitting hairs, just putting forward the facts and letting people decide, the waters are murky.

    http://law.justia.com/cfr/title22/22...1.0.34.17.html
    123.17 Exports of firearms and ammunition.
    (a) Except as provided in 126.1 of this subchapter, Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of components and parts for Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames) or complete breech mechanisms when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction.
    The hardest part for a private seller is determening if the part can be sold or not, infact this might be impossible for a person to determine without access to a comprehensible database and legal team like Brownells.

  8. #28
    I'm A Honcho!

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    One thing is true:

    Best not to give Homeland Security and the ATF any reason to come knocking on your door, and threaten to take away your guns just because you thought that you could sell $50 worth of brass to someone overseas. You will not win THEIR argument.

    Not worth it in my book. Not worth it.


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  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Show them your 'Fast and Furious' I.D. card. That should get you a pass.

  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy
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    There is still a Member here from another country who is trying to get me to sell him Brass.I have refuse His offer on several occasions.Be careful with these guys.Mike
    If I tell you a Rooster can pull a plow You better hook him up

  11. #31
    Boolit Mold Tallyman's Avatar
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    Anyone who has asked the BATF how many guns one can buy and sell in a given period, without needing an FFL, can surely understand the vagueness of US laws designed to trap citizens of pure intent.

    In the 1960s I had an ATF agent confiscate a small black powder cannon I was selling at a gun show because (he said) it was a non-handgun, concealable weapon and illegal under the National Firearms Act.

    But it would seem to me that if I shipped an imported Chinese manufactured scope to a friend in Australia, it would not come under these regulations. However. . . . . . . . . ??


    Quote Originally Posted by Zbench View Post
    HDS,

    The point I am trying to make, is, that the list is whatever our government says it is. It is vague enough that it could be covered, or not covered. As the vast majority of the folks on the board are US Citizens being asked to ship items abroad, and not the other way around, all the RISK in these matters falls to the SHIPPER, not the person receiving the shipment.

    Add to that all this stuff about non-commercial use, under $100, etc which is all bunk, and you can see the problem. To your point, it is not illegal to ship gun parts abroad if you have the proper permit. I'm sure if you are Brownell's, they have the proper permit. That doesn't mean, that just because Brownell's can ship something, it's ok for anyone else to do it.

    My intent in starting this thread was not to split hairs on what was covered, but to alert the masses here that if you just pretend that it's ok, you might get bit. If you get bit, it might have consequences.

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy z4lunch's Avatar
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    Cool March 50

    Year an a half ago I tried to sell a Guy in Finland a March 50X rifle scope.
    He paypal'd me and off we go... I shipped it through the mail, bout a month went by and he was getting nervous that I screwed him... Not only did he file a non receipt of an item with paypal, I got an 8 plus page letter from US Customs and Border Patrol on 610 S Canal street in Chicago IL. The short of the 2plus month process to get my scope back, was a detailed letter what I was trying to do, a $250 fine paid by me, a prepaid Priority mail label addressed back to me, oh and the letter I wrote had to be notarized ,and one of the docs I had to sign basically said I wouldn't sue them. When the scope showed I had to send a return doc that I received the scope back... I am so dun with this sticky and all the posts, I cant even believe you guy's would even consider sending something over seas...I will never send anything out of the US again. My lesson only cost me $300 ish and lots of stress. It could have cost me the back side of $3000 if the scope never showed back up... Don't walk run when a euro wants you to ship something overseas.
    my 2 cents
    Steve

  13. #33
    Boolit Mold Tallyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by z4lunch View Post
    Year an a half ago I tried to sell a Guy in Finland a March 50X rifle scope.
    He paypal'd me and off we go... I shipped it through the mail, bout a month went by and he was getting nervous that I screwed him... Not only did he file a non receipt of an item with paypal, I got an 8 plus page letter from US Customs and Border Patrol on 610 S Canal street in Chicago IL. The short of the 2plus month process to get my scope back, was a detailed letter what I was trying to do, a $250 fine paid by me, a prepaid Priority mail label addressed back to me, oh and the letter I wrote had to be notarized ,and one of the docs I had to sign basically said I wouldn't sue them. When the scope showed I had to send a return doc that I received the scope back... I am so dun with this sticky and all the posts, I cant even believe you guy's would even consider sending something over seas...I will never send anything out of the US again. My lesson only cost me $300 ish and lots of stress. It could have cost me the back side of $3000 if the scope never showed back up... Don't walk run when a euro wants you to ship something overseas.
    my 2 cents
    Steve

    Are March scopes US made or foreign?

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy z4lunch's Avatar
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    March scopes are made in Japan

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    That's hilarious, can't ship a scope made in japan outside the US... because terrorists?

  16. #36
    Boolit Master Whistler's Avatar
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    I've even had trouble buying things made in Sweden from the US.
    It is strange, we make the product, export it to the US and cannot import it back because of US terrorist regulations. Make you cringe.
    You would be amazed of the amount of modern utilities and supplies that you guys use daily in the US that are made in the nordic countries (Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway). How many of you own a Husqvarna chainsaw or lawn mower for example? I've had an American fellow at a dinner say it was one of the best American brands he knew. Guess what, this dinner was in my home town, 5 miles from our suburb Husqvarna were this stuff is made.

    Back to topic... Why would you go about reimporting? Price and availability of course. Stuff that cost $200 in the US cost $5-600 in Sweden. Buying the same item second hand for $150 saves you $450 on one single item. Of course we "try" to buy, but I am really tired of the rude remarks and replies us "foreigners" get from some of the members on this site. Some of us try to keep an eye on current export/import regulations, but a lot of time the seller is the one who's ignorant and it does not feel very friendly to be accused of trying to coerce the seller into crime and especially not because of "terrorist" actions.

    I'll stick to group buys only from now on. I'm tired of the attitude in Swappin & Sellin. I will stop to offer stuff for sale, but knowing myself I will probably not be able to pass up a good deal should I find a friendly seller who's read up on the "export list of the day".

    Scopes of non military application have been released from regulation, just so you know, free to export/import just as you like.
    Last edited by Whistler; 05-03-2012 at 06:31 AM.
    Shoot from a rest at 25/50/100 yards, then post your groupings. That is the only way to compare accuracy results.

  17. #37
    Boolit Buddy
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    I agree With some of the other people who posted,I want be selling and shipping anything outside of the US.I don't like doing this but I think it will save me alot of trouble in the Future.Mike.
    If I tell you a Rooster can pull a plow You better hook him up

  18. #38
    Boolit Mold Tallyman's Avatar
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    [/QUOTE] Scopes of non military application have been released from regulation, just so you know, free to export/import just as you like.[/QUOTE]

    Need to know. . .where did you find this information - and how is a non-military scope defined?

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Whistler's Avatar
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    This came from theopticzone.com in January 2012:

    The US Government has a new policy for exporting Riflescopes to Sweden. Below are the conditions that must be agreed too, so an export license is not required under STA in 740.20.

    Conditions:

    1. A [whatever sight you decide to order], under ECCN 0A987, will be shipped pursuant to License Exception Strategic Trade Authorization (STA) in 740.20 of the United States Export Administration Regulations (15 CFR 740.20)

    2. The ECCN number has been informed in the above condition to [your name here] by TheOpticZone.com.

    3. Consignee, [your name here], agrees that the above item shipped pursuant to License Exception STA may not subsequently be reexported pursuant to paragraphs (a) or (b) of License Exception APR (15 CFR 740.16(a) or (b)).

    4. Consignee agrees not to export, reexport or transfer this item/items to any destination, use or user prohibited by the United States Export Administration Regulations.

    5. Consignee agrees to provide copies of this document and all other export, reexport or transfer records relevant to the items referenced in this statement to the U.S. Government as set forth in 15 CFR 762.7.

    If you agree to the conditions above, we can ship the order out to you without applying for an export license with the US Government.
    It is also possible to get a cost free export permit for certain items for private sellers on eBay etc (should also apply to Castboolits).
    Shoot from a rest at 25/50/100 yards, then post your groupings. That is the only way to compare accuracy results.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master



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    It is also possible to get a cost free export permit for certain items for private sellers on eBay etc (should also apply to Castboolits).
    I would like more info on this. If you can point to a link I would appreciate it.


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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
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