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Thread: Shipping outside the US. Seller Warning.

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy

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    You are smart to waive off of ANY international shipment. Unless you have an export license from the State Department, you can't legally ship ANY articles that COULD be used to wage war. I too was once ignorant of the export laws, that is until a fateful day last year when two ICE agents arrived at my home asking questions about why I shipped 20 pounds of .40SW brass to Lithuania without said license.

    Fortunately, I got by with a warning. It didn't hurt that I owned a shooting range and the agents were interested in stopping by to shoot when they were off duty. Take it from me, if you ship brass outside of these United States, and your package is opened, you too will get a visit from Homeland Security.


    Getting off the soap box now, but be very careful.

    Pete

    For those who might be interested, see Cat III below:

    121.1 -- General. The United States munitions list.
    (a) The following articles, services and related technical data are designated as defense articles and defense services pursuant to sections 38 and 47(7) of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778 and 2794(7)). Changes in designations will be published in the Federal Register. Information and clarifications on whether specific items are defense articles and services under this subchapter may appear periodically in the Defense Trade News published by the Center for Defense Trade.

    (b) Significant military equipment: An asterisk precedes certain defense articles in the following list. The asterisk means that the article is deemed to be "significant military equipment" to the extent specified in 120.19. The asterisk is placed as a convenience to help identify such articles.

    (c) Certain items in the following list are placed in brackets. The brackets mean that the item is (1) scheduled to be moved to the licensing jurisdiction of the Department of Commerce upon establishment of a foreign policy control or (2) in the case of spacecraft and related equipment, the item is under review by an interagency space technical working group. The interagency review will result in a recommendation as to whether an item should be moved to the jurisdiction of the Department of Commerce or to USML category XV which was established for this purpose.

    (d) Missile Technology Control Regime Annex (MTCR). Certain defense articles and services are identified in 121.16 as being on the list of MTCR Annex items on the United States Munitions List. These are articles as specified in 120.29 of this subchapter and appear on the list at 121.16.

    Category I-Firearms
    *(a) Nonautomatic, semi-automatic and fully automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive, and all components and parts for such firearms. (See 121.9 and 123.16-123.19 of this subchapter.)

    (b) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications, and specifically designed or modified components therefor; firearm silencers and suppressors, including flash suppressors.

    *(c) Insurgency-counterinsurgency type firearms or other weapons having a special military application (e.g. close assault weapons systems) regardless of caliber and all components and parts therefor.

    (d) Technical data (as defined in 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category. (See 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

    Category II-Artillery Projectors
    *(a) Guns over caliber .50, howitzers, mortars, and recoilless rifles.

    *(b) Military flamethrowers and projectors.

    (c) Components, parts, accessories and attachments for the articles in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this category, including but not limited to mounts and carriages for these articles.

    (d) Technical data (as defined in 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this category. (See 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

    Category III-Ammunition
    *(a) Ammunition for the arms in Categories I and II of this section. (See 121.6.)

    (b) Components, parts, accessories, and attachments for articles in paragraph (a) of this category, including but not limited to cartridge cases, powder bags, bullets, jackets, cores, shells (excluding shotgun shells), projectiles, boosters, fuzes and components therefor, primers, and other detonating devices for such ammunition. (See 121.6.)

    (c) Ammunition belting and linking machines.

    *(d) Ammunition manufacturing machines and ammunition loading machines (except handloading ones).

    (e) Technical data (as defined in 120.21 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in 120.8 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category. (See 125.4 of this subchapter for exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.
    Last edited by 45nut; 02-27-2012 at 08:41 PM.
    Zbench

  2. #2
    Boolit Master



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    Molds would come under IIId "(except handloading ones)". It looks like group buys for molds are still OK.


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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thx for the Info.I read this Yesterday before it was a Sticky and realized I had an order waiting a Money Order.Order was cancalled last night.Thx Again Mike
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  4. #4
    I'm A Honcho!

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    I've also had some guys in Canada want me to ship 50 BMG brass to them.

    No sir, not gonna do it!


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  5. #5
    Boolit Master kodiak1's Avatar
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    Zbench
    Good post hope you folks can get that law amended a little after you change out your government next election.
    Some of the stuff on there is down right pathetic.

    Ken
    Ken.

    Be nice if it was better, but it could be worse

  6. #6
    Boolit Lady
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    You sure got THAT right!

    Pat

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zbench View Post
    You are smart to waive off of ANY international shipment. Unless you have an export license from the State Department, you can't legally ship ANY articles that COULD be used to wage war. I too was once ignorant of the export laws, that is until a fateful day last year when two ICE agents arrived at my home asking questions about why I shipped 20 pounds of .40SW brass to Lithuania without said license.

    Fortunately, I got by with a warning. It didn't hurt that I owned a shooting range and the agents were interested in stopping by to shoot when they were off duty. Take it from me, if you ship brass outside of these United States, and your package is opened, you too will get a visit from Homeland Security.


    Getting off the soap box now, but be very careful.
    So much for free trade...

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold Tallyman's Avatar
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    Sure am glad you posted this warning!! Does this also apply to the Chinese, Iranians and other foreign nationals stealing our technology and nuclear secrets to produce their own weapons? I hope Hillary is checking into this and complaining to the UN about it!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Katya Mullethov's Avatar
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    Dont sweat the - International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR)
    Just tell em you're gonna "Take down a cartel" .

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    I wonder in the excemption IIId if a progressive press is considered handloading, or manufacturing ammo? I also further wonder if they can say a brick of lead qualifies if the sale happens either here, or on gunbroker, or even eBay when the lead is in the Molds section, so the seller has reason to believe the lead in question is going to be used to manufacture bullets? Sort of like how if you have a baseball bat in your car, and it's the only baseball related item in the car it's considered a weapon, but if there's also a catcher's mitt in the car, then it's sporting equipment. You know, just once I would love to see a law that actually makes sense!
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS View Post
    I wonder in the excemption IIId if a progressive press is considered handloading, or manufacturing ammo? I also further wonder if they can say a brick of lead qualifies if the sale happens either here, or on gunbroker, or even eBay when the lead is in the Molds section, so the seller has reason to believe the lead in question is going to be used to manufacture bullets? Sort of like how if you have a baseball bat in your car, and it's the only baseball related item in the car it's considered a weapon, but if there's also a catcher's mitt in the car, then it's sporting equipment. You know, just once I would love to see a law that actually makes sense!
    Dillon does not offer power units for their machines because if they did, they could NOT ship overseas without lots of hassles. Their progressive machines are all manually operated, "hobby" machines. And that's the way they want to keep it. Once you add power, the whole game changes.

    Or so I've been told...

  12. #12
    I'm A Honcho!

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    http://www.starlinebrass.com/shipping_info.php

    If the manufacturers don't because of export laws, we shouldn't either.

    I would think Ken should make it a new policy that sales of export license items outside of the USA are not allowed here. I know that has a negative effect, but why allow folks, and perhaps this forum to get into trouble?
    Last edited by DukeInFlorida; 03-14-2012 at 02:14 PM.


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  13. #13
    Master Tool & Die Maker


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    Where does it say that maufacturer's can't export?

    RRR
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  14. #14
    I'm A Honcho!

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    What it says is that an EXPORT ***LICENSE*** is required.
    That's not just for manufacturers.

    Starline has decided to NOT spend the $$$ for the license. I personally will follow suit, and not send anything that Homeland Security would frown on outside of the borders.


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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    The import license for a company is from what I know, not expensive and applies for the whole companys product. This adds your companys product to the DDTC list and being on that your products can now be legally exported as long as their value is less than 100 per shipment.

    This is how Brownells operates and there are so many companies on the list from large to small that often I think that the companies that aren't on it don't know about it or find even that effort too much. It also allows others (brownells) to sell ones products for you.

    Brass might be different I dunno. It's insane though and has gotten worse since 2001.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Whistler's Avatar
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    It has gotten worse since 2010 even.
    I buy all my brass, molds and dies through US forums and German auction sites.

    The question I used to get was "Is it legal to receive gun related items in your country?"
    Now its more like "Sorry, I'm not allowed to ship that outside the US".

    The funny thing is that almost every single item related to firearms (brass, dies, presses) is made in the US. Its a large country of course, but I do believe the "rest of the world" is bigger. There should be statistics available how much is exported and how much is kept inside the US.
    Shoot from a rest at 25/50/100 yards, then post your groupings. That is the only way to compare accuracy results.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    At least reloading equipment such as molds, presses, dies is yet to be affected as they are not gun parts or are mounted on guns.

    I hope I didn't just jinx it, though I can't see a possible justification for it (then again I can't see any for the current rules either), do they think the taliban are gonna order a Dillon 1050 and start producing ammo in a cave or something?

    It's beyond ridiculous at this stage, I am now in a position where it would be easier for me to acquire a permit and buy an AK-47 legally with permits and all, than I got any chance of buying a Classic/DX front sight for my 629 from the US...

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy sh00ter787's Avatar
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    I am in the UK, I buy from companies in the states whenever I can. Tbh a company that will send to the UK I will support whenever possible (Brownells, although they use UPS are a last resort, Springfield Armoury are fantastic).

    I have had companies refuse to ship mundane items such as stripper clips to the UK - very frustrating!
    So this thread is saying that I can't get a scope or a flash suppressor from the US? What about magazines? Saiga 12 drum magazines are running at $500 plus over here, MD arms sell them for $90 each.... You get the idea of why we want to buy direct from the US?

  19. #19
    Boolit Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by sh00ter787 View Post
    So this thread is saying that I can't get a scope or a flash suppressor from the US? What about magazines? Saiga 12 drum magazines are running at $500 plus over here, MD arms sell them for $90 each.... You get the idea of why we want to buy direct from the US?
    It just means that a company has to get a license to ship the products to you. I inquired about it and if I remember correctly, it cost upwards of $800. Not feasable for someone selling some brass they picked up at the range, but inline with what a distributer would be willing to do.

  20. #20
    Boolit Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeInMaine View Post
    I would think Ken should make it a new policy that sales of export license items outside of the USA are not allowed here.
    Why would you prohibit the sales if the seller wished to go the legal route? I believe this sticky is enough, because the seller should be trying to find out the legalities anyway. This thread will allow them to make their own decision.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check